A dubious play?

[DocHollyday]

10/20$, 7handed

I get A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the BB

UTG limper and a very loose player raises EP. All fold, the UTG and me call.

Flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet my guts-shot and my overcards, call, raise, call, call

Turn: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Check, check, bet, call, call

River: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Check, check, bet, I raise, limper folds. EP calls ALL IN shows 88 for a set and we share the pot.

Not too sure about my play, but I like my river raise (I did it only because the EP had 2.50$ left) for the UTG's share of the pot. Please comment!!

[TxSteve]

i'm confused...

why are you sharing the pot? he had a set of 8's and you had a 9 high straight

[Zele]

I'm assuming there must be something wrong with your post. You had him beat.

Assuming you had made a straight on the turn, you should have bet it out. I don't like the river checkraise at all. You don't have the nuts, and more importantly the limper will very likely be calling if you don't raise. Same profit, lower risk.

[SA125]

Have to bet the turn for 3 reasons. There's a flush draw out, can't risk losing a bet here and, just like the 4 fell, you don't want a 9 falling and losing to a 10.

Have to bet river for 1 reason - can't risk losing a bet here either.

[Gabe]

"EP calls ALL IN shows 88 for a set and we share the pot." I don't get it.

[elysium]

hi doc
check-raise to get the UTG to fold. your hand can stand a free card, and if the EP bets, you have a perfect check-raise opportunity. if you check, and the action is bet, raise, you can safely fold. if the action is bet, call, since the pre-flop was raised and your call closes the action, take a card off.

[DocHollyday]

It was a straight 9high on the board, that's why we shared. Thx for all the responses!

[SA125]

elysium - "if you check, and the action is bet, raise, you can safely fold."

On the turn or river, you would fold instead of paying to see the 10-9 nuts?

I can't see that. Would anyone else lay this down to a bet-raise?

[elysium]

hi sa
i'm talking about the flop, not the turn, not the river. i see that i didn't make it clear that the important area in this hand occurs on the flop.

notice that because of the pot's size and number of opponents, pot odds will always make folding to one bet on the flop not far from being correct. if someone is building a bank-roll.....well, this hand can be played as long as you know what it is that you're trying to get accomplished.

you have to see that if this player had one less out than he has, you fold for 1 bet on the flop everytime. same is true if 1 or 2 additional opponents were in this hand. so, the hand is playable, but remember, 4 outs here are to a one card straight and 3 semi-outs, any 9, will often make a straight unless it's heads up. unless it's heads up, when this player turns a 7 and makes his one card straight, the board will be horrifying for anyone not holding at least a 9 if he is facing an over-caller. heads-up, the board is less scary for anyone not holding at least a 9. heas-up, and the one card straight is far less likely against a longer higher straight.

notice that he has 1 or 2 other outs. he has back-door runner, runner to the nut flush. well that's 1 or 2 outs that could prove very useful. additionally, if any heart comes off on the turn, he now has an excellent check-raising opportunity. notice that here again, against just one opponent, he has a far better chance to take the pot down on the turn, and isn't as likely to be raised. also, if he can't shake off his opponent, his A high unimproved stands a better chance against just 1 opponent rather than 2.

on the flop, therefore, he must check-raise to drive out one of the opponents and get heads-up. notice also that his check-raise helps to reduce the horror of the board when he completes his one card draw that will put four to a straight on board. as we've said, the drive-out of the check-raise getting this hand heads-up, will reduce the horror by removing the over-caller so that when our player completes his one card straight and bets, the caller won't also be facing a horrifying over-caller. since our player is in first position, doing everything thing we can to reduce the horror is important because no allowance can be factored in by the caller for the bet's origin being rooted in weakness shown by having gotten checked to. if our player is acting last instead of first, and had gotten checked to on the turn, the caller could rationalize a little and call thinking that the bet on this scary board was due to our player having gotten checked to. well, from first position, our player cannot expect the caller to rationalize away the reason our player bet-out fearlessly like that on such a horrifying board. so it is necessary, therefore, to supplant this rationalization with another.

if we check-raise the flop and then hit our one card straight, and then bet-out fearlessly into the horror, our opponent may ration that we may have check-raised to stop the straight from completing, and that we are also betting-out fearlessly like that because, 'yes' he may rationalize, he (we) are still betting to stop the straight, just like we check-raised to stop it. so check-raising the flop, as it turns out, enhances our implied odds by helping to remove board horror in the case of 4 of our outs. does everybody see this?

is it clear how check-raising our hand on the flop is absolutely essential from a strategic vantage point? i just want to make sure that i understand you correctly; you fully understand that unless we can get off a check-raise on the flop, that our hand isn't even worth calling even if our call closes the action. is that what i am understanding? ok then.

this hand needs your precious check-raise on the flop to give it proper value. what else does this hand need on the flop therefore? the answer is easy. the terrain over which our hand makes its check-raising hurdle, must have check-raising terrestrial integrity. the action must be check, check, bet. it's that simple; although check, bet, fold ain't shabby.

without this precious action, our hand is not worth a call even if our call closes the action.

let's look at our hand from another perspective. often, hands like this will start out heads-up on the flop. so let's see if our strategy changes a little heads-up.

does our strategy change? would i be too forward if i suggested that we check-call the flop? why check-call?

notice that heads-up, we are in a completely different scenario. now we move from one that requires we check-raise to get heads-up and remove some of the horror, over to a setting that requires us to strongly consider the possibility that we can take the pot down with turn leverage. so firstly, we start thinking about setting up a turn leverage play on the flop.

from first position, we achieve maximum turn leverage by check-raising. we are in first positon. we also want to manipilate the size of the pot downward to maximize pot leverage. so, we don't want to bet out because that will build the pot. we also don't want to check-raise. a check-raise will build the pot and it will also reduce the odds of our opponent betting on the turn when we check. so, to keep the pot smaller giving our turn check-raise the greatest drive-out leverage and to induce our opponent to bet when we check to him on the turn, we check-call the flop. we want to establish, to the best of our ability, a pattern of betting that suggests that when he bets after we check, he need not fear a check-raise. we check-call the flop.

but there is yet another reason we check-call on the flop that is tied into our 'take-down with leverage' strategy which itself is intertwined into the field conditions and board, so that we find the teeth of our actions aligning harmoniously with the teeth of our stategy as we sprocket and cog toward the turn. we check-call on the flop heads-up also because there are nearly twice the number of cards coming off on the turn that will give us a turn leverage hand as there are cards coming off that will give us a modest lead; nearly twice as many!

any heart coming off will give our turn check-raise take-down the green light, and now you'll hear our engine roar. does everyone see how we should allow our hand to improve as inexpensively as possible into a roaring turn leverage check-raiser? and since the odds are greater that we will check-raise the turn than they are that we will improve to a modest lead and bet-out on the turn, we gear up for a turn leverage play. if we had a modest lead or were more likely to improve to a modest lead, then we would strongly consider betting out on the flop heads up as we are. here though, we are more likely to improve to a check-raising hand, and so we must prepare ahead of time for that more likely eventuality.

does check-calling the flop hurt us those times we improve to a modest lead on the turn? yes, a little. the board will be a little scarier, but since in this scenario we are starting the flop heads-up, it won't be quite as scary, and therefore check-raising the flop to remove some of the board horror those times we improve to a one card straight or turn our A, isn't quite as necessary. but the check-call isn't as good as betting out on the flop or check-raising the flop in those cases.

if we turn a heart and our check-raise is called, we have lots of outs and the option to take another shot or show-down our A hi for free on the river. if we complete our flush on the river, because of turn action our bet will be called. if we get reraised on the turn, we are getting more than enough pot odds to make the call of course.

by the way, another reason to bet out into our opponent on the turn those times we improve to a modest lead is to avoid the possibility of getting 3 bet. then, we do not likely have the odds to call.

doc's thread that the board or conditions were something other that what he originally posted is quite irrelevant. this situation is common and, in any event, is similar to the actual hand. we will run the hand as originally posted.

[SA125]

Very good. Analogies of the herd mentality of beaching whales for steal raise plays aside (Only kidding. Just showing I always read your take on plays.) I knew that even a poster of your depth wouldn't lay that down at that stage.

Thanks for the reply.