Assessment of Wilson TTH Pre-Flop Strategy

[brianmarc]

After reading that C. Moneymaker practiced with the Wilson system I've been working extensively with it to improve my HE SH skills. One major strategy all the TTH Advisors have is that you ALWAYS open-bet with a raise. I have not seen explicitly anywhere else (and I've read the dozen or so top books on the game). Truth is, in using this approach in games all the way from 3/6 up to 30/60, it seems to work since it immediately establishes you as an extremely aggressive player, and, since the TTH rules are also very tight, I have learned to play nerveless TA quite rapidly. However, this approach requires you to be extremely disciplined when your flops miss, particularly in EP’s, and that you not auto-bet as the player with the lead. (In the lower limits of the games I play the pre-flop raiser will bet 90%+ of the time if no-one has already bet. It’s so common that check-raising on any decent hand is a no-brainer if you sit to the open-raiser’s left.).

I am interested in comments from the community regarding this 100% open-raise strategy. If you don’t agree, what hands would you simply call with when first to bet.

[blubster]

I'm just wondering why you would get it because Chris Moneymaker said he used it. Could be the reason why he's a bad player. Yea he won the World Series but he got lucky countless hands and got outplayed a bunch of times only to hit a lucky river. If he told me that's what he used then I'd know to stay away from it.

Nah, just messin but TTH strategy isn't that good. I forgot which but Skalnsky or Malmuth posted somewhere on here that they had major problems with the TTH strategy. I don't think if you use the TTH strategy you could come out ahead in the long run.

blubster

[brianmarc]

"I'm just wondering why you would get it because Chris Moneymaker said he used it."

This comment of mine seems to created some confusion. I really meant to say that I learned of TTH from an article about CM. I then purchased it and made my own decisions about its capability.


"TTH strategy isn't that good.
First, three are multiple TTH stratgies, one of which is the hyper-aggro one I referred to. Second: Is your reaction based on your own experience or the S&M report?

"I don't think if you use the TTH strategy you could come out ahead in the long run."


I have been using the TTH pre-flop strategy online for about 9 months, primarily in SH, playing about 300 hands a day. Suffice to say my experience has been such that the traditional win-rate goals of 4-6 BB/hour are a joke. Nothwithstanding this, I soeitmes feel that I am leaving something on the table by automatically open-raising. BTW: You never actually replied to the substance f my quesiotn: What do you think of an outo-open-raise strategy (irrespective of the fact that it originated with TTH)

[naphand]

A couple of points:

(1) CM may have been paid to mention TTH, so take with a pinch of salt.

(2) The strategy in TTH can be altered if you can bother to crawl through the many many pages of PF/betting/raising standards etc. I have managed to create a game that is very similar to low-limit SH but, the problem is (i) you know their strategy and (ii) that strategy does not change according to what you do.

I think TTH is a great learnign tool for people new to the game, and certainly helps to eliminate basics flaws in your game and develop an understanding of the mechanics BUT is no substitute for real play. Making real decisions in 30 sec, against players who sometimes are unpredictable, with real money is something else. Good for early development as it deals so many hands, but limited in its ability to mimic live play.

Also, I think the "strategy" of TTH (by this I mean the recommended hand plays) are too loose and often poorly explained. It is worth buying IMO to get some play experience under your belt, after starting to read and learn. After that, and you are playing live, its live play, reading and 2+2 (do I get any freebies.... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]).

As for rasing first in, this should be your default play, but in loose games you may want to reconsider how you play quite a few hands. See the threads on loose games and open-limping

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...o=&fpart=1

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...o=&fpart=1

This is a matter of disputed opinion, there is some merit to open limping in loose games with some hands. The more aggressive the game, the more important this becomes.

[brianmarc]

"CM may have been paid to mention TTH, so take with a pinch of salt."
Possibly. But my assessemnt of its usefulness is independent of CM.

"The strategy in TTH can be altered if you can bother to crawl through the many many pages of PF/betting/raising standards etc."
Am aware of this, and have studied and modified the bet variable printouts.

"But limited in its ability to mimic live play."
Could not agree more. In fact, I am unconcerned about what the opponents in TTH do-only what the Advisor is telling ME what to do. Then, being able to see odds of various outcomes, provides insights that cannot be gotten from live play.

"Is no substitute for real play."
Could not agree less! First, who is talking about "substitutions"? Course you gotta play, but if you keep on making the same mistakes how you gonna learn?? In a similar vein, would you advocate against reading Sklansky et al as also "not being substittues for real playing". Likewise, would you tell Agassi to stop hitting practice balls since "it's no substitute for playing in real matches"?

I could go on, but I'm sure u get my drift.

[naphand]

Calm down Brian - I was just giving you my opinion, not attacking you. If you want to rant perhaps you might prefer recpoker.... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Playing with TTH is NO SUBSITUTE for real play. End of story. It is certainly limited in what it can teach you, it takes you so far and then you have to play real games and learn about actual live play - and this forum is a great way to do that.

I would never advocate stopping learning - and consequently would certainly recommend keeping reading. But TTH has limits as to what it can teach you; the recommendations as far as playing hands goes, disagree with those of Sklansky & Malmuth (this was mentioned in another reply). One problem is, you don't know what the recommendations are based on, I have doubts about them as (i) Sklansky & Malmuth disagree and (ii) I have found them too loose for live play, even at low limits.

One problem with learning TTH is the fact that the recommendations are there. They won't be when you play live. If you're stuck for what to do - see what the advisor says. But live you have 30 sec to make your mind up with no advisor. I think the learn theory/practice live experience you get from reading books and playing live will take you a lot further than TTH. It's a useful learning tool, but that is all. It cannot teach you the finer points of the game or even a deep understanding of it - this comes from reading theory and playing live.

For example, you could read Lee Jones and play robotically according to his recommendations. You would beat the low-limit games, but how much could you learn from the book. Not a huge amount. HOW to play and WHY to play are different things. I think you understand this. And there are so many different situations you will meet when playing live, that HOW begins to struggle, and you need to know WHY so you can make adjustments.

Using you tennis analogy:
Agassi practices by hitting real balls on a real court, he has a trainer who trains him specifically and can see his game and make highly targetted adjustments. The equivalent of this in poker would be a coaching session with David Sklansky (or other teacher), but certainly not TTH.
TTH is a generic learning tool, the equivalent of Agassi watching "how to play tennis" videos and then answering questions on it in a simulated computer game. At best TTH is the equivalent of working out in the gym, it gets you fit to play but you still have to play and learn about the real game to progress.
TTH may look the same as live play, but it is not. TTH is a substitute for real play.

If you disagree with this, fine, but I think you will find that most players with a lot of live experience will say the same thing (they have not used TTH in yonks). If you are still learning the basics, and find it useful then keep using it; just be aware of its limitations. I believe the "Poki Poker" program is probably considerably more advanced that TTH, as it has intelligent bots that adjust to your playing style (and I believe it has been designed with the help of Sklansky).

Just wondering why you posted your question, if you had already made up your mind about it; on this forum you will find plenty of dissenting opinions to your own (and the same applies to me, of course).

Did you check out the links I gave for some of the debate on open-limping in loose games?

[brianmarc]

Nap:

Before I start: TVM for your thoughtful and detailed reply.

"If you want to rant perhaps you might prefer recpoker.... "
No offense was intende - I certainly did not think I was ranting - but maybe I overstated my reaction to what sounded like a fals dichotomy you were making.


"One problem with learning TTH is the fact that the recommendations are there. They won't be when you play live"
True, but you can go back to the program or the printouts and refer to them after the hand -a tually, after printing the rules out you can, in fact, use them in real time.

"Using you tennis analogy: Agassi practices by hitting real balls on a real court, he has a trainer who trains him specifically and can see his game and make highly targetted adjustments. The equivalent of this in poker would be a coaching session with David Sklansky (or other teacher), but certainly not TTH. TTH is a generic learning tool, the equivalent of Agassi watching "how to play tennis" videos and then answering questions on it in a simulated computer game. At best TTH is the equivalent of working out in the gym, it gets you fit to play but you still have to play and learn about the real game to progress."

Very elegant, and tough to disagree with - however, to extend: how about a ball machine? This may be a more appropriate analogy for TTH, especially for those of us who can't afford DS.

"Just wondering why you posted your question, if you had already made up your mind about it"

I've made up my mind on TTH's overall effectiveness based on the fact that I have dramatically improved my play by using it. The reason I know I have improved my game is that I am winning 10-20BB/hr consistently over past 9 mos.

However, I am trying to get even better and know that this forum is populated by those who have forgotten what I still have to learn.So I was soliciting ideas on a specific tactical situation, rather than expecting a Talmudic discussion on TTH.

No regrets, though, as this has been entertaining as well as educational.

Cheers!

[bigpooch]

The advisor is awful; on the other hand, you can design a
profile that plays better than the advisor profile and then
base your simulations on the better profile. Even then, you
must take all the results with a grain of salt: it doesn't
play nearly as well as an intermediate poker player! The
only thing you might use it for is to help you practice your
preflop and the on the flop strategy to the point where you
can make these decisions almost instantly thereby giving you
more focus on the more important (and more expensive and
therefore more profitable) streets.

Almost forgot to add this: the raise or fold approach (if
first one in after the blinds) is not a bad approach and as
stated before, there may sometimes be reasons (depending on
the situation) not to come in raising. LHE is a game of
aggression, and almost all top players have a tight and
aggressive approach.

[mosch]

Everything I've heard from people who have actually sat with CM says that the rumour that he's a talentless hack who got luck is incorrect.

If you haven't played with him for a reasonable amount of time, I suggest you refrain from referring to him as a bad player.

[brianmarc]

Nap:

These are awesome threads! TVM!