Another preflop question

[rtrombone]

Suppose there's one EP limper (either UTG or UTG+1). You're in either UTG+2 or UTG+3. What is your default play with 88? 77?

What about hands such as KJs, QJs or AJ offsuit?

My default is to muck all of the above UTG. If you play looser than me, I'm sure your answer will be "call." If you play as tight as me, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose there's one EP limper (either UTG or UTG+1). You're in either UTG+2 or UTG+3. What is your default play with 88? 77?

What about hands such as KJs, QJs or AJ offsuit?

My default is to muck all of the above UTG. If you play looser than me, I'm sure your answer will be "call." If you play as tight as me, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd usually muck 88 or 77, except in the rare cases that it's a very passive game, with many limpers seeing most flops. If it's a VERY tight game, you might get away with isolating the limper with a raise. It's one of those hands that's probably best to mix up your play with from time to time, but usually it goes in the muck for me.

More than likely, I'd muck the AJo. With KJs and QJs, I'd probably muck except for a passive game.

I guess my style of play doesn't lend itself to certain hands. I either like to open raise, re-raise or fold in most cases. If I limp, it's usually with a drawing hand and a fair certainty that I'm going to get a lot of company. The exceptions would be limping with AA or KK in a very tight/aggressive game.

[SA125]

Are the blinds routinely 2 bet and sometimes 3, so not it's not a question of getting in cheap?

If you don't hit it, do you want to go to your stack to try and take it down if you think you can?

How have you played from there before? You don't want to look like a calling - ch/c station.

How have your cards been running?

I like the AJo the least because it's probably the toughest to get away from.

[Ed Miller]

You know, it's weird. When I play poker, people say things like, "you are the tightest player I have ever seen. EVER." In fact, that's generally the knock on me from the 15-30 pros... I play ok after the flop, but I'm way too tight.

Apparently, none of these people has ever seen most 2+2ers in a game; I'm apparently Action Jackson compared to most of you.

[Pipedream]

I've been told I'm tighter than a snaredrum, but I still think limping with a medium pair after a single utg limper is fine. It depends a bit on the game type. Will your limp induce others to limp? If you raise is it possible to get headsup with position on limper? I personally would rather raise the AJo than the medium pairs in this spot.

[SA125]

I was trying to give him some questions for his question. It's usually more gray than black and white, right?

I would play every one of those hands most of the time from UTG or EP, taking into account the players in that game.

I'm far from a pro, but think referencing the big picture is sometimes a better answer than "what I would do with this."

I 2 bet KK in MP and see K84. A guy (straight off the travel channel with sunglasses, chips on his cards, etc.) who had limped in before me leads and we start hitting each other. Turn a 4, I'm top full. We're HU now and same thing. I see his hands shaking. Trouble.

Now I'm seriously wondering how this guy can possibly continue attacking? I've raised every chance I had and I'm not going anywhere. Does he really think I'm this ecstatic over AK and that I'm not even considering him for flopping a set that has made his day on the turn? What better hand to beat a FH with than 4444? The odds are slim, but I got AAAA later that night. I might be on the losing end of a bad one here.

River a blank, he leads, I stupidly flat call and he turns K4. I let him keep alot more chips than I should have. I ask him what he put me on and he looks blankly for a minute, then says "I knew you had at least a K."

Sometimes it's not what to do but, what does it look like.

[SoBeDude]

I don't think i'm folding 77 or 88 very often in the games I play.

If I think its going to get raised and possibly reraised behind me then yea, I fold.

If it will likely get raised and I'm going to be 3 or 4 handed I'll fold...unless the raiser is a manaic then I'll still play.

If the table is fairly tight I'll raise to isolate the limper. If the table has a lot of limping its an easy ovelimp.

KJs is a usual raise for me, QJs as well. AJo is table dependent.

-Scott

[Gabe]

I always thought that I was the tightest guy in town, but apparently I’m not. May I ask where and at what limits you play?

[rtrombone]

My game is similar to SinCityGuy's.

I've adopted andyfox's policy of never open-limping. I used to come in with KJs UTG, but I decided that it's not strong enough to raise with. So now I muck it.

I view KJs and QJs more as drawing hands than big-card hands. I much prefer to play these in late position after multiple limpers. Of course, I will open-raise and raise to isolate with these and a host of other hands if my position is favorable. The better my position, the less hand I need.

The problem in the situation I described is that your position is relatively lousy. There are still four or so people to act behind you. If you limp along with KJs or 77, you may attract more limpers behind you, but it's also possible somebody wakes up with a real hand and raises. Now you're forced to put in two bets when you're out of position and likely dominated.

For similar reasons, raising to isolate in such early position is an iffy proposition. There are enough players to act behind you that you may find yourself isolated by a 3-bettor. Or, one or two guys may find cards they like and decide to cold-call, foiling your plan.

You may say well, if the game is loose with lots of people limping and cold-calling, you should just limp, right? And if it's tight, you should raise to isolate. But this isn't about the looseness or tightness of the game. It's about the uncertainty of what hands the people behind you are going to find. In my experience, it's not uncommon to see this kind of preflop action in a single orbit: limp, raise, eveyone folds to the limper; limp, raise, 3-bet; limp, limp, limp, limp, limp; limp, raise, cold-call, cold-call, cold-call, cold-call. It just depends on what your opponents have been dealt. This is the beauty of position; when you're in the cutoff or on the button, you see what almost everyone has done already.

It's tough to know what's going to happen behind you when you look to your left and everyone is waiting until the action gets to them before they look at their cards.

To answer your question, Gabe, I play mostly online now, everything from 5-10 to 30-60. You can also find me in the Commerce 40-80 and maybe the 10/10 no-limit or pot-limit if it looks promising.

[Andy B]

I play too many hands, but there is no reason for me to sit in a game where I don't feel comfortable at least calling one bet from any position with any of the above hands.