Firing that second barrel

[Acesover8s]

Oft times I find myself betting at a pot into 1-3 players simply because they've checked to me. Then they call me, and my hand can't possibly be good.

Then the turn is some card, they check and I have to decide whether to fire again.

What criteria do you guys look at when you fire the second barrel? Or do you not get yourself into this trouble? Am I losing money trying to pick up the $5-$15 of preflop money?

[spacemonkey]

Yeah I have the same problem. Too many calling stations
out there, and often people slowplaying two pair etc. If checked to in late position, I will often want to bet when I have anything of the flop - pair, draw (semibluffing) etc, I rarely bet with nothing at all. Just don't overdo it against stations. With decent opponents, they can't call with a hand they are very happy about (or are on a draw), and will usually fold if you fire the 2nd barrel (unless they are slowplaying a monster, or are tricky opponents will try to play back at you). Stations come in two types - those that will call you all the way and those that like to call on the flop, but will usually fold to a second barrel. It's important to classify your opponents. Also, it is not that important to win all that blind money unless you are shortstacked. You are really after big pots - doubling through someone on a big hand.

This mostly applies to unraised pots, in raised pots other factors come in.

[The Dude]

Very rarely will I bet in this situation if I don't have at least a draw. If I have as little as bottom pair with an overcard, or a gut-shot and backdoor draw. The reason I do this often here, is I hate having to check here when I have a good hand.

Unless you fire away here fairly often with hands that need help, you will never get called when you bet your made hands.

I typically will only fire a second barrel if I know my outs are still good. For example, if the board is J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and I have A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], I will usually fire that first barrel here. If the turn is the J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], I will check it through. Not neccessarily because I fear the J, but I no longer have the backdoor flush draw, and even if my A hits on the river, I lose to AK-AT.

Some other criteria to consider:
-How prone are these specific players to trapping with hands like flopped sets. Or would they bet them out?
-How likely are these specific players to call all the way to the river with top pair/ no kicker? (I love them in my game, but this move isn't nearly as good against them.)
-Is their stack size such that they are more or less pot committed?
-How likely are these opponents to bluff on the river with a busted draw?
-What is my current table image?
-How long has it been since I've been dealt Granny Mae?

These are all things to consider, but the first explanation above is my primary motivation. (Sorry, I just couldn't help but to put that last one in there. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

[tewall]

From a game theory perspective, you would want 1 out of 3 bets or so to be of the type where you expect you're beat, and the other 2 to be where you expect you're ahead (assuming a pot-sized bet). It makes sense to have outs, of course, for the behind hands.

If they tend to call too much, which I would expect to be the case, in general you shouldn't bet. You may do it occasionally to get your big hands paid off, but if they will call anyway, there's no need to waste money on a -EV play.

If you are only against one opponent, firing the second barrel becomes more attractive, as you only need a 50/50 chance of taking it down (or less, depending on your outs), to make it profitable.

[Magician]

If you have rags and too many guys stayed in the only 2nd barrel should be the one you buy from Kentucky Fried Chicken.

[dogsballs]

Good thread.

I was mulling something like this last night after playing PLO and 3 or 4 times, firing two barrels with big draws, then checking a board-completing-but-missed-me-and-he-can't-fail-to-have-hit-or-why'd-he-call-two-pots river, just to find out (as BC puts it) his nothing beat my nothing.

I concluded I was firing a bit too much (tought to bet again with some of those rivers), despite the fact that they were calling with crud. Better to fire once; then play to make a hand vs those kinds of opps. Others will call once with sh*te, then dump the turn, so fire again of course.

Guess I'm saying I should be working harder on identifying my particular opps tendencies so I know better what to do after firing the first barrel.


Edit: Of course PLO different from HE