Grim Reality

[OldLearner]

Firstly, let me start off by stating that

1) I object to the use of pokerbots, for any reason. People should only be allowed to use what god has given them, no artificial aids or devices of any kind

2) Because I have a conscience, I would never consider indulging in any form of cheating, of which teaming is one

3) Most people in these forums have the same beliefs. I say most because it seemes there are some who would like to use a bot to make money for them while they do other things

Unfortunately, this is only my image of the perfect poker world.

Online poker on the internet is not a perfect world. The sad realities that we have all been ignoring or disregarding are there.

Collusion does exist. Team's do exist. They do not exist to the extent that they have destroyed the internet game, but they do exist. There are people colluding, sharing card information, whether it be via InstantMessgenger or some other chat box or the telephone (why they would use the phone when they could use a chat box puzzles me)

I am saddened by the fact that this WinBot product has been created. It goes against the beliefs of all concientious poker players.

The creators of this product have not created this environment or the problems within it. They have conceded that collusion exists in Online Internet Poker. What I don't like is that they have provided a tool

- that makes it easier for those that choose to cheat to do so
- that will undoubtedly encourage others who do not cheat right now to do so because of the convenience and because of their "if you cant beat em join em" mentality
- provided a pokerbot for whoever wants it. Programmers will have a distinct advantage because they already have programming knowledge and can more easily program their bots

As much as I dislike the fact that this product has been made available, the creators of the product have broken no laws. And as much as I hate this statement, "if they wouldn't have, someome would". I do not like that they actually promote cheating with comments as "card sharing is not cheating", but they are 100% correct in stating that it already exists.

Perhaps it will actually turn out for the best. Maybe this will force the Poker Sites to do something concrete to prevent the use of bots and all other forms of cheating. Maybe this is a case of the sooner the better.

I will continue to play online despite this until I find that it is no longer profitable. Nevertheless, "this is a sad day ..............."

[JPNet]

Isn't "card sharing" cheating in any B&M game. i.e. if you tell people what cards you have while the hand is being played, your hand is disqualified. If you do it a few times, you are disqualified?

Not sure how the online games would handle this, but presumably if you made a habit of telling people what you had in the chat window, you would be barred from the site.

[spamuell]

JPNet,

I think when OldLearner meant card sharing using a chat window, he was referring to a program like MSN Messenger, not to actually writing the cards you have in the chat box of an online site.

[JPNet]

I understood that.

I was making the point that it is cheating, and that if you were to do it in an obvious way, where you were obviously going to get caught, that you would get banned.

You could make the same analogy in a B&M. If I sit beside a friend, lean over and show him my cards, and I don't stop after being warned, I will be asked to leave. However, if we arrange some set of subtle signals that are hard to catch, I will still be asked to leave once they catch on. i.e. still cheating, still wrong, just harder to catch.

The fact that you do it online in a way that is hard to detect does not make it OK, just makes it harder to catch. Still wrong, hopefully still gets you banned, just takes a little longer.

[bigpooch]

The sooner that teams and bots are more significant in the
immediate future, the better in the long run. Not only will
the sites need to detect them, but players will also be
aware of them. I would prefer if the offenders did have
their accounts frozen and all the proceeds put towards
freerolls and giveaways! Also, with hand histories and
software, damaged parties could be compensated.

I think that even with bots, teams and not to mention some
skilled players, the games online are still quite easily
beatable in the long run by the experts. Of course, if that
were to change, I would raise a fuss!

[FredJones888]

this is why all the people saying "internet poker is the future" are all full of crap. Eventually enough people will catch on only play in real casinos. I still play online but only for microlimits.

[fluff]

Seems to me it would be easy enough to go flag players with abnormal BB/hr and SD/hr data then looking those up and see if there are any collusion patterns. One somewhat educated staffer could probably examine dozens if not hundreds of players a day.

You'd have to be pretty stupid to cheat on gambling sites where they can freeze your account and funds on a whim.