Ethical/Rules Question - PLEASE RESOND! THX!

manku · #1 01-23-2004, 11:59 PM

I've been playing poker for over 20 years, mostly home games, some casino action. My regular home game is mostly Omaha 8OB, either 4 or 5 card. A couple other variations, mostly split pots. Occasionally HE. The buy-in is $1000, and we usually play spread limit ($5 min) 25-50-100, doubling in the last hour of play. Occasionally PL, or higher limits. Big wins are in the $2500 range as are big losses. The game is very friendly, and includes a father/son. When they are heads up, they don't bet/just roll over the cards. We don't play hardcore rules - we can table talk: if someone's dealt out, we just deal them a four card hand from the top of the deck. There is absolutely zero chance of cheating. A nice friendly game.

This afternoon, I was stuck $1000 having not won decent pot in over 4 hours. The last hand came up. It was 5 card Omaha8. A maniac bet $50 preflop, everyone called. And there was a $25 blind ante because it was the last hand. Nine players.

I flopped a wheel, the first good hand in AGES. I got very excited, and bet the max, $50. Saying, "I've got the wheel". Also, everyone at the table know me and knows I wouldn't bet without it. This kind of table talk is quite common, and most people don't lie when making these proclamations - I know I don't.

I got one caller (maniac), and waiting for the next player to act, I said "You know what, I'll make it really easy on the rest of you" and turned over my hand.

Well, the reaction was really weird. People got livid. In the past,I'd shown some of my cards on the river to people still in the hand. No one ever complained. Also, other people will declare their draws upon flops:"I got the nut flush and low draws".

The maniac lost it, said I hurt his hand and he turned over his hand. He also had a 3-5 for the wheel. BTW, there were two clubs on the flop.

My feeling is, if someone wants to show me his hand, it's only to my advantage. Perhaps because it's a split pot game, this is unacceptable. However, seeing as we could get quarted by a flush or full house, or even a sixth if another baby comes, I don't see how I hurt our chances. After all, if the flop were AA9, and I turned over my quads, I don't think anyone would complain.

Well, they thought it should be a misdeal!!! I protested, but ended up taking out my chips and sitting out the final hand.

Question: What are the rules, esp. in clubs, regarding exposing your hand? And two, while I have no problem adhereing to this rule in the future, were they wrong in declaring it a misdeal?

It was the perfect ending to a miserable afternoon of cards [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Manku

GoSox · #2 01-24-2004, 09:32 AM

Confusing post. You seemed most concerned about whether you broke the "rules". Which you did in most rooms, showing your cards and talking about them.

I would be most concerned about why ?? Every home game is different, in most of the poker i play we have this really bizarre goal which is to.... win more money !! Why on earth would you give away a good hand ?? If I was up big and hit I might ease off just to not send anyone home angry. But, if you havent won a pot in four hours why are you killing your hand and pot ?

SpaceAce · #3 01-24-2004, 10:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Confusing post. You seemed most concerned about whether you broke the "rules". Which you did in most rooms, showing your cards and talking about them.

I would be most concerned about why ?? Every home game is different, in most of the poker i play we have this really bizarre goal which is to.... win more money !! Why on earth would you give away a good hand ?? If I was up big and hit I might ease off just to not send anyone home angry. But, if you havent won a pot in four hours why are you killing your hand and pot ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about you, but when I read his description of the game, it sounds to me like the money is not that important. To me, it sounds like a friendly game where people go to have fun and winning or losing is of secondary concern.

If declaring hands, talking and showing cards is so common, I don't see why everyone got so upset. The maniac was mad because you drove out potential customers but I think everyone else just wanted a misdeal because they didn't like their cards. In the future, you'll know better than to turn up a real hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

SpaceAce

manku · #4 01-24-2004, 10:52 AM

The reason I flipped it over was that my "luck" was going so bad, and the pot was large enough (over $700) that I didn't want to get quartered or worse.

As for the rule, I called Commerce Casino and asked them. They said my hand was live. Pit boss called my play stupid [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], but legal.

And I spoke to some of the guys afterwards on the phone: they all volunteered that they had miscalled the play.

Wish they had instant replay in cards!

Manku

Piiop · #5 01-24-2004, 02:03 PM

You did show your hand only AFTER the maniac had already called which was rather unfair to him. I could see why he would he mad.

manku · #6 01-24-2004, 02:26 PM

You're right, and I would've been perfectly happy to have him withdraw his call of my bet...

Ironically, the maniac also had a 3-5. And he protested the most, demanding a redeal.

Manku

GoSox · #7 01-24-2004, 10:42 PM

It reads like a friendly game, but with $700 in a pot if it stays friendly I want to hang with you guys !! I don't know many people that can drop a grand and not get emotional, although it's easy to still stay friends.

You can argue casino rules forever, but in my opinion it's more of a fairness thing to others in the game. If your headsup and talking is one thing, but with others in the game it starts to get a little unfair if you're intentionally saying things that can influence others.

manku · #8 01-25-2004, 12:54 PM

Generally, pots aren't that large before the flop. However, it was the last hand of the night, everyone anted $25 (instead of usual $5 dealer ante) and the maniac bet $50 blind with everyone calling preflop.

Usually, the pot might be $2-300 MAX preflop.

I agree that heads up, anything goes.

Manku

snakehead · #9 01-25-2004, 03:37 PM

it seems that your main concern is if what you did was legal. you really need to understand that what you did was extremely unethical. think about how unfair it was to the player who had already called.

Mackas · #10 01-25-2004, 07:10 PM

check out Robert's (Ciaffone) Rules of poker at:

http://www.poker-press.com/school/sc...sp?copy_id=480

According to it under etiquette:

The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:

....

Revealing the contents of a live hand in a multihanded pot before the betting is complete.

...

We used this to settle a similar debate in a home game when someone became overly fond of shooting such angles at omaha.

Good Luck

Mackas