Two AA - limp re-raise attempts

[rharless]

I don't often limp-reraise AA. In fact, in 30k hands, I have limp-reraised AA exactly one time! I've seen some posts that the play doesn't really win more, because of those times that you whiff, i.e. don't get to follow through on the reraise. But, maybe there are some good conditions for limp reraising that I am passing up.

At any rate, I've been looking for the right spot and time to make this play. I got the chance twice. Here's how it turned out.

Hand 1

This table has mostly straightforward players, and a real LAG in LMP. He raises 20% preflop.

Party Poker 5/10 (10 handed)
rharless has A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and is UTG

rharless limps, EP1 limps, MP2 limps, LAG folds (sigh), Button folds, SB limps, BB checks

Flop(5 SB): 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB checks, BB checks, rharless bets, EP1 folds, MP2 calls, SB folds, BB calls

Turn(4 BB): 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks, rharless bets, MP2 folds, BB (completely unknown to me) raises, rharless calls

River(8 BB): 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets, rharless calls

Hand 2

This is a different table, but similar. In fact, this is the very same LAG player who I was banking on at the previous table. This time he did not disappoint. This table is very loose, with three players whose saw flop percentage is over 50%(!).

Party Poker 5/10 (9 handed)
rharless has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and is UTG

rharless limps, MP3 (LAG) raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, rharless 3-bets, MP3 caps, Button calls, SB calls, rharless calls

Flop(17 SB): 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, rharless bets, MP3 raises, Button folds, SB calls, rharless 3-bets, MP3 calls, SB calls

Turn(13 BB): Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, rharless bets, MP3 raises, SB calls, rharless 3-bets, MP3 calls, SB calls

River(22 BB): 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB checks, rharless bets, MP3 raises, SB calls, rharless 3-bets, MP3 calls, SB calls

Drinks are on me!! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[biggambler]

Sometimes, when I'm at a table for 4 or 5 hours my preflop bets get no action at all, (tight image). <font color="red"> Your play matches mine exactly at this time of the evening.</font>

[Wayne]

Hand 1:
Flop(5 SB): 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

When you limp in, you always risk letting the BB play with any two cards. After the turn checkraise, I'd put him on trip 9's. He might have 92o.

I want idiots to call a raise with 92o. In the long run, it makes me lots of money. But I need to make them pay preflop every time.

To try a limp-reraise, you need to be fairly sure that there will be a raise behind you.

[rharless]

you always risk letting the BB play with any two cards

The trick is, when is the risk worth it?

After the turn checkraise, I'd put him on trip 9's.

Of course. And I did. Are you sure enough of the read against an unknown to lay it down?

To try a limp-reraise, you need to be fairly sure that there will be a raise behind you

I felt reasonably sure that someone would raise behind me.

Is it ok to suffer the consequences such as I did in hand 1, to reap the potential rewards such as I did in hand 2? Given, hand 2 is ideal. It won't always be ideal like that. But often it can be extremely good.

[slogger]

Tough luck on hand 1! I guess this is why we reserve the limp-reraise for very rare occasions. I think you played it well otherwise, but I wonder if maybe you can lay it down on the turn. This is something in my own game that I've been working on (mucking overpairs to a turn check raise on a paired board; and dealing w/ turn checkraises, generally). As a follow-up question, if you don't fold to the turn checkraise, is it -EV to ever fold the river? I'd love to hear some others' thoughts on this, but my guess is that in a pot this size (relatively small), you can probably lay it down on either the turn or the river (preferably the turn).

Hand 2 obviously could not have worked out any better. LAG jamming and re-jamming you monster with a calling station caught in the middle!!! It seems like this type of result will still be rare, even when the pre-flop limp-reraise connects. Not sure what your LAG put you on (assuming he/she even bothered to think about it), but my first thought whenever I see a limp-reraise is AA or KK.

My question, then, is: Are you giving away too much info by limp-reraising with AA or KK, if you never do it with any other hand?

And, if so, what other hands would you try it with every now and then in order to keep opponents off-balance?

(Note: I recognize that the avg online player will generally have no read on you and will rarely be paying enough attention or playing at your table often enough to pick up on this trend).

[rharless]

Slogger, you posted exactly the same kinds of questions that are going through my head. I think it's a good play to include but I am not sure how often would be the right frequency even if conditions are "ideal" (which to me means a lot of people willing to pay multiple bets to see the flop, and a fairly sure expectation of a raise behind you).

Hand 1, it was so obvious to me that he held a 9, but I just hate laying this down against an unknown. I get c/r'ed by some weird stuff some times. In fact after the flop call by two people, I considered checking through to induce a bluff on the river (is this ever wise against two players?). I figured they were calling with a 9, and I'm toast, or they are calling with a pocket pair, and I don't want them to fold, or they are calling with random overcards, in which case I don't want them to fold the turn; I want them to hit the river and pay me off.

But then when the turn card came and solidified some possible backdoor draws, I could not let it go and clicked my bet button. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

In this session an hour later on the same table as my "big win" AA hand, I also limp-re-raised (after this) ATs. About half of the table was new had not seen that prior AA hand. I did this ATs hand because I remember Clarky once including AJs on his limp-reraise list, and I was in "limp-reraise experiment" mode.

Party Poker 5/10 (10 handed)
rharless has A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and is MP1

UTG limps, rharless limps, CO raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, rharless 3-bets, CO calls, BB calls, UTG calls

Flop(12 2/5 SB): 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks, UTG checks, rharless bets, CO calls, BB calls, UTG folds

Turn(7 7/10 BB): 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks, rharless bets, CO calls, BB folds

River(9 7/10 BB): A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

rharless bets, CO calls

[slogger]

When you're getting tricky w/ ATs, hard for things to work out much better than that! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

What did CO have, by the way?

[Wayne]

[ QUOTE ]

you always risk letting the BB play with any two cards

The trick is, when is the risk worth it?


[/ QUOTE ]

It might be EV+ for my bankroll, but it is EV- for my mental state. If I let 92o see a free flop and I end up getting beat, I get extremely frustrated with myself. I risk losing my focus once that happens.

If 92o calls my raise and beats me, that's ok. I know I played it "correctly" and I will get paid in the long run.

[ike]

I'm not sure a single moron LAG is a good justification for the limp-reraise. I would think it would make more sense at a generally solid but also generally overaggressive table (or one with multiple moron LAGs). I'm looking more for a table where theres a raise 80-90% of the time coming from somewhere rather than a single guy raising 20% of the hands and the rest of the table playing normally. Against the LAG you describe you might do better to openraise and hope he 3 bets you. Maybe this would be out of character for this particular player, and if so I take back what I'm saying, but for a lot of LAGs most of their raising hands are 3bet hands too. With this approach I think you give up very little in expectation in hands where he is involved and still get to play optimally in the majority of hands where he gets dealt hands that are too trashy even for him and mucks.

[Mikey]

DRINKS ARE ON ME!!

LOL

Nice post and nice job with the limpreraise!!