I'm a total chip factory - calling thin all the way

[rharless]

This table is very often multi-way. Several known fish, only one good player who is unfortunately PFR here.

Party Poker 5/10 (10 handed)
rharless has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and is MP3

two limpers, MP1 (good T-A player) raises, rharless calls, folded to the blinds who call, as do the limpers. Six to flop.

Flop(12 SB): 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bets, BB calls, UTG folds, EP1 calls, MP1 folds, rharless calls (15-1)

I'm thinking here, I have the gutshot draw at least. Even if I catch a non-flush J on the turn, the river will flush me out sometimes. Right? Still, this can't be too awful.

Turn(8 BB): 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB bets, BB calls, EP1 raises, rharless thinks and calls 2BB(13-2), SB calls(all-in), BB calls

Eeesh. I called b/c the 9 improved my draw to effectively an open-ender. But it just feels bad.

River(15 9/10 BB): 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks, EP1 bets, rharless folds, BB folds

[Homer]

I would have played it the same way postflop.

Preflop, I'll fold sometimes, but at the table you were at, I'm guessing I would have called as well.

-- Homer

[thirddan]

given your description and obvious respect for PFR i think i would toss this preflop most of the time.. What hands could he have that you are beating? and almost all have you dominated or leave your only out an A (JJ/QQ/KK. Postflop is ok.

[rharless]

OK, it's a given that the AJs preflop call against a good player raising is dubious. I did think about that and decided to call. "Calling thin all the way" meant preflop too.

Given the nature of the table, I wanted in on the action. Also, I felt that after two limpers, and with me on her immediate left, Good Player would raise with a wide enough range of hands that my AJs call was fine. She raises PF more than I do. Using the transitive property, there are many hands that I would raise with here that AJs should call (or 3-bet), so I thought my AJs is playable here.

[rharless]

I was drawing thinner than I thought. SB had KQo. EP1 had QsJs and so they flopped a draw two ways, then turned the nut straight with redraw. At most I had two outs.

Coupled with... good MP1 raised PF and then folded when bet into on the KTx flop, I think she very likely had JJ or QQ maybe medium pair. I can't imagine any other PF raised hand that mucks on this flop...? If she had QQ then I had as many as zero outs.

When I checked the hand history, I somewhat kicked myself for seeing that EP1 had turned the straight and I felt I should have considered this possibility in the hand. For some reason I did not "see" it -- I just saw that the 9 helped MY draw.

Thank goodness I didn't catch an 8 on the river!

[Bob T.]

One other factor to consider on the preflop play is that you will be first to act after the preflop raiser. This means that you will be able to raise to charge your opponents double to continue, but at the same time, it might make it harder to build a huge pot because you won't be able to get them to pay on the installment plan.

Even if I know the pot will be multiway, I don't like to be the first coldcaller, because I most likely won't be able to get the maximum price for my hand. But at the same time, if I flop a draw, I could get charged the maximum to try and get there.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Eeesh. I called b/c the 9 improved my draw to effectively an open-ender. But it just feels bad.


[/ QUOTE ]

i hate this feeling. you have to call, but you feel like you're getting trapped. you'd need a real strong read to lay it down here. it's possible, but very rare.

thankfully, lady luck smirked at ya and gave ya a blank on the river instead of the lower end.

b

[bernie]

didnt you post in a thread somewhere where you mentioned that in this spot, if you hit your draw, you wont be able to collect as much because of your position in relation to the raiser? something like, you cant jam your draw because it will likely knock out the players you want to pay you off. it was a great post ya did, i thought. though i cant remember where it is. it was fairly recent, i think.

that said, it can be very tempting to call this. especially if you dont expect a reraise behind you, but more callers. (gravy table) i'm figuring that you thought there'd be more callers coming in behind you but they just happened to fold.

even then, im not a big fan of being the first to coldcall. (you're post mentioned above said it pretty well) Not saying i've never done it, but i never really liked it when i did.

the hand can also play a little easier if you reraise.

b

[bernie]

except im too stupid to be able to provide a link to it. i tried and it didnt work. dammit.

but it was in response to a question by slavic. titled, 'Preflop question'. posted around 1/14

it's a little different hand, but still relevant, i think.

b

[rharless]

didnt you post in a thread somewhere where you mentioned that in this spot, if you hit your draw, you wont be able to collect as much because of your position in relation to the raiser?

Yes, and I still believe that post, but in this situation I thought AJs was more playable than QJs in that scenario. QJs is strictly a drawing hand, really. AJs can hit just the A and be good here. There are more hands that Good Player raises here that don't have an A, than do have an A, so there's a good chance I'm not even really dominated. If she is raising AK/AQ, then I take my lumps when the A flops -- but I think there is enough external funding from the other players to cover those losses.

Right now I am wishing I had 3-bet preflop, actually.