Cold Call with A8s; raise the flop with middle pair

[rharless]

This table rates as one of the best 5-10 tables I've seen at Party. People like to call/call/call/fold the river a lot. Usually 5-6 people see the flop. At least a third of the hands are raised PF but always only for one more bet. My bets seem to be getting proper respect, perhaps because I bought in 50 bets and am already quietly up another 35 more bets.

UTG in this hand is very very loose. He sees about 55% of all flops and raises PF 11%. On a couple other hands, I have seen him bet with nothing on the flop, catch his card on the turn, then lose on the river and get steamed.

hand
rharless has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and is EP2

UTG raises, EP1 calls, rharless calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls

Flop(12 2/5 SB): 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks, UTG bets, EP1 calls, rharless raises, MP3 folds, Button folds, BB folds, UTG calls, EP1 calls

My plan is to turn an 8 or a club and then bet. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Turn(9 1/5 BB): 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG checks, EP1 checks, (screw the plan, they all checked to me!) rharless bets, UTG folds, EP1 folds

end hand

(Sometimes poker seems so easy...)

Is it ok to be only the second cold caller here with A8s? I expect only callers (no raisers) behind me. I can't maximize my profit with respect to the PFR if I hit a flush, but I am in position to thin the field if I like the flop.

From the flop on, I think my play of the hand feels almost automatic, though I'm guessing many here do not raise the flop and if they do, might opt to take the free card on the turn.

Thoughts?

[mmanne]

I don't really like the pre-flop call at all. If I was SURE that 6+ callers would be there, I'd cold-call. But most of the time I'm mucking this one. You really only have outs for your flush because with his EP raise, you can't be sure that any of your outs are clean. He's too loose with his play, but I don't think the right way to take advantage is to cold-call with weak hands.

Matt

[J.R.]

I hate the coldcall preflop and love the rest. I would not take a free card, since you are probably ahead of UTG and you can use your image (presumably a good one) to possibly leverage out EP1, whose flop call may be light and based on UTG's aggressive betting. You don't give a read on EP1, but wouldn't a J raise this raggedy flop to attempt to push out overcards? I might be more inclined to take a free card if a paint card fell, but in general, there is a good chance you are giving, rather than taking a free card on this turn.

[Mike Gallo]

I don't really like the pre-flop call at all. If I was SURE that 6+ callers would be there, I'd cold-call

Rharless gave a very good table description. She seemed to have her finger on the pulse of the table. Given her desciption of the table, I agree with this call.

You really only have outs for your flush because with his EP raise, you can't be sure that any of your outs are clean.

Rharless has the nut flush draw. I do not understand what you mean by this sentence.

He's too loose with his play, but I don't think the right way to take advantage is to cold-call with weak hands.

What one player considers trash another players considers treasure.

Giver Rharless's read of the table. I agree with the actions on all streets, and I think she played the hand well.

[Bob T.]

I hate the coldcall preflop and love the rest.

Borrowed from elsewhere in the thread.

How are you going to play if you completely miss? Which you will do a fair amount of the time. Your Ace high probably has a fair amount of showdown value against this opponent. With the intervening coldcaller, you might have a hard time Isolating the maniac, and I think if you see the flop, you probably want to see a showdown with this hand.

I probably would have waited for another situation, at least one where you had better position. I think that even with the other caller, if you are going to play, a threebet would be better. Your play after the flop was perfect.

[slavic]

For some reason your description just screams 3 bet or muck to me pre-flop. Real nice raise on the flop.

[rharless]

I wasn't "SURE" there would be a lot of callers. But I did expect it.

[el_grande]

[ QUOTE ]
You really only have outs for your flush because with his EP raise, you can't be sure that any of your outs are clean.

Rharless has the nut flush draw. I do not understand what you mean by this sentence.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think what they meant was if an 8 or an A falls, you could be up against higher two pair or a boat.

[rharless]

How are you going to play if you completely miss?

I would fold.

The table was so juicy that I was seduced into looking for ways to get into the action. I thought this one might be reasonable, but obviously I have been strongly voted down. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

The players, including UTG, were not maniacs; they just liked to invest incrementally in roulette.

I wasn't at all trying to think about isolating the UTG raiser. I was angling for many callers against which to play my Suited Ace. That's why I did not 3-bet, but it does seem like a viable option. At the time I wanted to keep everyone in, not drive them out.

[Mike Gallo]

I think what they meant was if an 8 or an A falls, you could be up against higher two pair or a boat.

Ok, I can see that. The poster means a dominated Ace.