NL Poker Stars Tourney.

[John W]

Down to 43 players out of 500. I have an average stack of about 13k. The two players involved each had around 22k. Just got moved to the table, and unaware of how they play on a hand to hand basis. The blinds are 600 and 1200. Alright, two early limpers to me in the small blind and I find AQ. I thought about just blowing them up and move in, but just decided to call (mistake or not). The BB checked so we see the flop 4 handed. The flop came Q J 4. I led out and bet 4500 into the 6k pot BB folds, next guy moves all in, next guy folds now it is up to me. If I fold I still have around 7k which would now be a short stack, but I would not be in the K-10 all in mode yet. Any thought at any point in time in the hand would be great.

I will post the results later.

[CCass]

IMO, exactly 2 hands beat you (at this point)...QJ and 44. Would he limp with AA or KK? QQ is pretty unlikely. I would call the bet, but then what the heck do I know. He probably has KQ.

As for your call (no raise) pre-flop, AQ is one of those hands where it depends on the circumstances, I have no problem with the call.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Tough decision being new to the table. The all-in could as easily be KQ as 44. He could also have the same hand as you, but less likely. You're getting almost 5-2 from the pot, and from the lack of mention of suits there's no flush draw. I'd rather not be left with 6x BB with antes every hand (by the way, that *is* "all-in with KT territory).

All-in-all, I'd lean toward calling unless you're not in the money yet and only 7 places or so from it.

[John W]

Well I called and he flipped over Q-J and no help for me. I really feel in looking back on it I should have moved in or made a nice raise.

Thanks

[thomastem]

I put your opponent on 4-4, Q-J, A-Q or K-Q, if I don't have a read I make them solid until I do specially since he has survived thus far. A good amount of players will raise A-Q pre-flop first in so let's take that out. 4-4, Q-J or K-Q. K-Q? What would an average player put you on with your open bet flop with 4 people in? From his perspective a bluff is less likely than if you were heads up and you though new to the table have lasted. I believe he would put you on A-Q, K-Q, Q-J or a open ended straight draw. That said would he go all in with K-Q? I think that you opponents bet screams of I have the best now but I can't afford to entice calls if a straight draw is left (2 are still in when he bets).

My read is Q-J or 4-4 and I fold.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I called and he flipped over Q-J and no help for me. I really feel in looking back on it I should have moved in or made a nice raise.

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

It took me a while to write my earlier post. I honestly hadn't seen this result until after I entered that thread.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Well, preflop either call or raise all-in. I don't think any lesser raise would be better. If it's small enough to leave you enough to make a meaningful bet postflop, then it's too small to make them all fold now.

As for whether calling or raising is better, it depends upon the situation. Even though you don't know these players, you know something about the field as a whole. Is it quite likely that limping means they have a mediocre hand, or is it very possible they're trapping with a big pair? If the former, raise all-in now. If the latter, just call and see the flop.

On the flop, I don't really like the T4500 bet. Also, you say there is T6000 in the pot, while I count T4800. Was there an ante of T200 per person also? In either case, this bet is big enough to tie you to the pot, but it also might encourage somebody to take a shot, figuring you're betting this amount so you can get away from your J9 if somebody raises. While you don't mind getting it all in here against any hand you're ahead of, in many cases your chip EV is going to be almost as high if they just all fold now, rather than race you for everything with 5-8 outs.

So, I would tend to bet all-in here. Since betting the full pot is about half your stack anyway, that is my default bet in this spot.

If you are worried about somebody trapping with AA or KK here, then you either need to check-fold, or stop worrying.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[LetsRock]

I have no problem with th pre-flop limp.

I think I would have had to shove it all in, rather than a pot sized bet on the flop. It probably wouldn't have mattered, but at least you would have put the sweating on him. He may have figured you for 44 and bailed, but probably not.

Calling his raise? Without a read that's a real tough call. I'd probably have to do it with TPTK. If he loses, he still has T8K (or so) left so it's not a huge risk to try a semi-bluff here. Folding here you're pretty much looking for the next time to shove 'em all in and do you really expect to get abetter shot than this?

You got a bit unlucky.

[John W]

Sorry for the chip count being off, there was 5430 to be exact. As for my bet it was closer to 1/3 of my stack than 1/2. The chip's were going in the middle no matter what after the flop, so being worried was not an option. Thanks for your response along with your condensending remarks to go with it. I mean that in the nicest way. I do enjoy your thoughts of the game.

[curtains]

I would call the allin. KQ is too likely, and pot is too big.