Pair of tens overplayed

[Wyrm2]

Party 1/2 tables... basic tight table, agressive PF but pretty normal postflop

CO raises with most group 1-7 hands from any position.

I'm dealt T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button. MP1 limps (he limps a lot), folded to CO who raises, I 3 bet from the button and the BB calls, as do the limper and CO. <font color="red"> </font> I have been fighting being to passive, but I think that this 3 bet was overagressive. <font color="black"> </font>

4 see the flop, which comes 8-4-5 with 2 spades. Checked to me, I bet, the limper and CO call.

3 see the turn, which is 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Checked to me, I bet and both call.

3 see the river which is J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checked to CO who bets, I make a crying call. If he had not bet I would have checked through (fearing the flush).

Aside from the overagressive 3-bet, what do you think of the rest of the hand. Once I didn't see resistance from the other players, I put them on overcards or flush draws. Comments or advice?

Results below....
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CO had J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] which was beating me all along [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[SpaceAce]

I don't like three-betting the tens before the flop. Once you're in the hand with the tens, though, I don't think you overplayed them. There were no overcards and no one so much as raised you so you couldn't reasonably be expected to know that your tens were no good.

SpaceAce

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]

CO raises with most group 1-7 hands from any position.

I'm dealt T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button. MP1 limps (he limps a lot), folded to CO who raises, I 3 bet from the button and the BB calls, as do the limper and CO. <font color="red"> </font> I have been fighting being to passive, but I think that this 3 bet was overagressive. <font color="black"> </font>


[/ QUOTE ]

I think the three-bet was fine. Indeed, why not three-bet him, especially since you believe he may be holding a hand no better than that held by the MP limper?

I think that the flop bet and turn bet were both fine, especially since each bet had a chance to knock out one or more overcards.

On the river, you know you're probably toast after the CO bets, alhtough I can't see not making the crying call.

Overall, I think you played the hand well.

[spamuell]

I think you played this hand well.

I don't see any point that you were over-aggressive, the only place you even raised was PF and you have one loose limper and a very loose raiser, you must 3-bet here, and you have position as well.

Not betting the flop and turn would be a huge mistake, I hope you know why but if not reply to this and I will explain.

You didn't make any aggressive action on the river at all, you just called.

You are not guilty of overplaying here, the CO is guilty of underplaying, and he definitely missed several bets from you.

The CO could have made this hand a lot more difficult for you. What would you have done if you had been check-raised on the flop? What about if he smooth-called the flop and check-raised you on the turn?

I wonder whether you have a value bet on the river if checked to. There is nothing to indicate that the CO has a flush draw, and if he had raised PF with something like A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] x[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], there's a good chance he would have bet the flop. He is likely to just be sitting on overcards (I can't believe he didn't raise you with JJ). MP1 is a bit worrying, but as he also hasn't raised you it's much more likely that he has something like a pair of 8s than a flush draw or a straight, although if he is passive he might just call down with a flush draw or with a hand like T9. If you were checked to on the river, and MP check-raised you would you have called? What if the CO check-raised?

Sorry to introduce all these hypothetical scenarios, but I think the hand at the moment is fairly straight forward, but you really should be thinking about how you'd react if you were put to a difficult decision on any street.

[SpaceAce]

I'm surprised at how much everyone seems to like the three-bet. This is a micro limit game. Your three-bet will get called by AQ, AJ, almost any pocket pair, KQ, JQ, ATs and other similar hands, especially since you've already got a couple of poeple with money invested in the pot. As soon as an overcard hits, you're sunk because you can't possibly feel good about your tens and even if they are good, you probably won't get maximum value out of them. Tens just don't figure to hold up in micro limit multi-way pots, especially not with a raise in front of you. Why not try and get your set on the cheap? I know you want to punish lesser hands but I think the value in it is small with tens in a micro limit game. Technically, you're punishing AK by raising with 22 but how often do you see 22 take down a micro limit pot? You're bound to get a bare minimum of three people seeing the flop.

SpaceAce

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
Your three-bet will get called by AQ, AJ, almost any pocket pair, KQ, JQ, ATs and other similar hands, especially since you've already got a couple of poeple with money invested in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a slight favourite over all of these hands, and you dominate ATs and many pocket pairs, and if the CO has a pocket pair which dominates you, you're likely to hear about it (although our hero didn't this time). The thing is, you will also get called by hands which you are quite a large favourite over - Axs (or even Axo by some players) where x is less than 10 could easily be what the CO is raising with given the description of him, or even suited connecters where one card or even both are lower than 10, which you are a huge favourite over.

[ QUOTE ]
Tens just don't figure to hold up in micro limit multi-way pots, especially not with a raise in front of you.

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The CO was a very loose raiser and it is unlikely that he had our hero dominated (although in this case he did). That pocket Ts don't often hold up in multi-way pots is more of a reason to raise, not to call - make the blinds really have a good hand to see the flop, don't let them in the pot for cheap with anything from Ax to Jx which only needs to flop one card to beat you.

[ QUOTE ]
As soon as an overcard hits, you're sunk because you can't possibly feel good about your tens and even if they are good, you probably won't get maximum value out of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but a fair amount of the time the flop will not fall with overcards (anyone have a % for this?). Also, a large factor is that the hero has the button, which gives him a massive advantage. If there is a bet and a raise before him when an overcard falls, he can get out cheap, if there is one bet or he is checked to he can raise and likely get a free card on the turn, unless his hand is improved, and if he is bet into on the turn after raising the flop he can fold fairly safely. He could also fire again on the turn and possibly take the pot down there, and if not, almost definitely get a free showdown. Position is an enormous factor in this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Why not try and get your set on the cheap?

[/ QUOTE ]

With TT, you are not looking to flop a set, and if our hero was only going to continue if he flopped a set or better, he may not even have had the implied odds to call 2 bets cold PF, depending on the post flop play of his opponents.

[ QUOTE ]
Technically, you're punishing AK by raising with 22 but how often do you see 22 take down a micro limit pot?

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There are a few major differences here:

1. 22 will rarely win unimproved whereas TT will often do so
2. You cannot raise with 22 often because your opponent could just as easily be holding something like 99 as AK (OK, there are only 6 ways of making 99 and 12 of AK, so technically AK is twice as likely, but he could also have another small pair). If you were 100% sure that your opponent had AK and you had 22, raising would be correct. With TT, if your opponent holds a pair, you're fairly likely to have a better one (player dependant of course, as some won't even consider playing 88 and below)
3. TT just has more ways to win than 22:
(i)If you make a flush with TT, it's much more likely to be good than a flush with 22.
(ii) There are many more straights that can be made with TT, including a nut straight, while with 22 you can only make very few straights and they are never the nuts.
(iii) If the board 2 pairs with 22 you are completely counterfeited, while with TT your hand is often good and you can often entice an opponent to call down with A-high.

I think there are other things that I'm forgetting, as this is just off the top of my head, but I think our hero was completely correct in 3-betting with TT in this situation.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]

You are a slight favourite over all of these hands, and you dominate ATs and many pocket pairs, and if the CO has a pocket pair which dominates you, you're likely to hear about it (although our hero didn't this time). The thing is, you will also get called by hands which you are quite a large favourite over - Axs (or even Axo by some players) where x is less than 10 could easily be what the CO is raising with given the description of him, or even suited connecters where one card or even both are lower than 10, which you are a huge favourite over.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not saying his hand isn't a favorite over any one of those hands individually, but in the micro limit games you're almost never going to be heads-up or even three-way on the flop. A combination of hands that adds up to three or four overcards and two suited hands is not good news. Yes, everyone else may be less favored than you to win but if their percentages add up to 80 and yours to 20, is it really worth paying more than you have to for the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
The CO was a very loose raiser and it is unlikely that he had our hero dominated (although in this case he did). That pocket Ts don't often hold up in multi-way pots is more of a reason to raise, not to call - make the blinds really have a good hand to see the flop, don't let them in the pot for cheap with anything from Ax to Jx which only needs to flop one card to beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that trying to thin the field out is a good reason to raise. However, I think the key here is still "micro limit". Good luck effectively removing opponents, especially with two people already having put money in the pot and the blinds yet to act.

[ QUOTE ]
This is true, but a fair amount of the time the flop will not fall with overcards (anyone have a % for this?). Also, a large factor is that the hero has the button, which gives him a massive advantage. If there is a bet and a raise before him when an overcard falls, he can get out cheap, if there is one bet or he is checked to he can raise and likely get a free card on the turn, unless his hand is improved, and if he is bet into on the turn after raising the flop he can fold fairly safely. He could also fire again on the turn and possibly take the pot down there, and if not, almost definitely get a free showdown. Position is an enormous factor in this hand.

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You're right that sometimes an overcard will not fall and that's great except that if the board comes all under ten, you have no reasonable hope of losing the Aces and JQ hands for one small bet or even a check raise since they will almost certainly all put one more in to see the turn.

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With TT, you are not looking to flop a set, and if our hero was only going to continue if he flopped a set or better, he may not even have had the implied odds to call 2 bets cold PF, depending on the post flop play of his opponents.

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I am not saying the only reason to play the tens is to make a set but I disagree that that's not what he's looking for. With as many players as are probably going to end up in this pot, we're back to tens not being very useful.

[ QUOTE ]
There are a few major differences here:

1. 22 will rarely win unimproved whereas TT will often do so
2. You cannot raise with 22 often because your opponent could just as easily be holding something like 99 as AK (OK, there are only 6 ways of making 99 and 12 of AK, so technically AK is twice as likely, but he could also have another small pair). If you were 100% sure that your opponent had AK and you had 22, raising would be correct. With TT, if your opponent holds a pair, you're fairly likely to have a better one (player dependant of course, as some won't even consider playing 88 and below)
3. TT just has more ways to win than 22:
(i)If you make a flush with TT, it's much more likely to be good than a flush with 22.
(ii) There are many more straights that can be made with TT, including a nut straight, while with 22 you can only make very few straights and they are never the nuts.
(iii) If the board 2 pairs with 22 you are completely counterfeited, while with TT your hand is often good and you can often entice an opponent to call down with A-high.

I think there are other things that I'm forgetting, as this is just off the top of my head, but I think our hero was completely correct in 3-betting with TT in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly, my 22 example was meant to be extreme. I was not seriously proposing that TT and 22 were equal hands. As for #1, I don't think "often" is accurate but I don't have any numbers to back that up, just my observations as a player at the micro limits. 3/i is accurate inasmuch as a ten-high flush will be good much more often than a 2-high flush, but with four flush cards on the board and likely three or more people in the pot no matter what you do pre-flop, your ten is a weak flush card. 3/ii is also accurate but quite a long shot. I don't think you can really count that as much of an edge.

I could be flat wrong but my experience at the micro limit tables tells me that three-betting TT there is just not worth the trouble.

SpaceAce

[JDErickson]

SpaceAce,
TT is my 3rd most profitable hand and I raise 77% of the time with them. They are the 5th highest preflop hand. I play it as such.

Jim

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
SpaceAce,
TT is my 3rd most profitable hand and I raise 77% of the time with them. They are the 5th highest preflop hand. I play it as such.

Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

So, would you have capped if it came to you reraised? My issue is the three-bet, not any raise with TT. If I'm wrong here and a three-bet is always called for in this situation, that's fine. I would not have done so in this situation unless I had some very specific reason (ie, the other two who have already put in money are complete morons). I don't know what statistics you track but do you know for a fact that you are playing TT for the maximum possible profit? Is the three-bet in this situation boosting your profit or dragging it down? Just a thought.

Again, I am only rendering an opinion, here. When I play, pocket tens rarely hold up for me without improvement and three-betting with it does not seem, in my observations, to help it hold up. If I thought I could fold everyone but the raiser, I would do it in a heartbeat but in these micro limit games I always end up with a raft of stragglers.

SpaceAce

[Ric]

I think you played the hand fine. There was no resistance on the flop or turn to show you you were beat. Very scary card on the river, but I would have called too just to see the showdown.

I put the CO on a jack at the river. I guess I was partially right [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. I probably would have put him on a high straight or flush draw based on eariler action, but the river bet looks to be a J.