Some loose game thoughts - not loose hands

[Mike]

Here are some of thoughts on loose games. These are ideas, not facts and posting them does not mean I agree with them, although I may. One item Rigoletto mentioned, I am posting of loose games, not loose hands. Comments welcome but please try to put some logic or fact into the comment that will promote discussion.

.5 I think the intention of S&M examples are to keep newer players out of trouble, and not focused to maximize win rates. I don't have any inside track to their thinking so I really do not know but risk taking isn't big in any of the examples.

1. AA wins many more hands that KK and below in loose games because AA can not be dominated by any other pair, and AA will make the broadway that any Kx will not win. I think this is a big advantage in a loose game.

Below I am thinking of a loose game with reasonable players not a fish farm game where you can consistantly punish poor play. In a fish farm game, good play is very different.

2. In a loose game preflop play is less important than postflop play. When many players see the flop post flop play determines hand quality. For example post flop somebody's 54s could become a monster and QQ is way behind. This isn't an unusual scenario in a loose game. Sure QQ is a big starting hand, but the flop determines what you do with QQ and how you can play it from there. The river determines the winner of the round. You can not ram and jam QQ with a flop with any draw that you do not hold a piece of and reasonably not with an Ace or King in it. Well maybe you can, but you are thin betting when you do.

3. Disguising your hand by playing smaller pairs the same way is another area of trouble for many players. Here is an example, I am utg with 88, and I raise. It comes back to me for two more bets, and what the heck, I have five players with me, so I cap. Two things happen here.

3a. I make trips, but any 9 - A on the board may make my set dominated by another bigger set. Any draw has a following because someone or two someones has a piece of it. With five players in with me, that is an admitted possibility. I am not advocating being scared here, just pointing out what is probable with reasonable players.

3b. I do not make my set and I am forced to fold in most cases. So now I have spent 2 BB just on this one hand because I was pushing an unmade hand.

I think what happens from this type of playing because of the rarity of big pairs happening, eg, 220:1 for QQ is the many losses from playing those smaller pairs makes the value of big pairs AA - JJ pay off at a rate much less than they are worth.

The negative value in losing with various raised small pairs say 77 - 99 offsets the win rate of KK - JJ, so essentially I think we could quit playing both sides and simply play JJ, TT, and the win rate would be about equal to the balance of QQ winning and smaller pairs losing. Why are we asking QQ to make up the losses from smaller pairs that must be folded after preflop capping?

4. If the game is all ready loose there isn't much need to disguise your hand that I know of? I don't think players need to be fooled to bet.

5. I have found in a loose game over aggression quickly turns the game tight. There goes the loose game and all that comes with it. Any losses are harder to make up when the game turns tighter. Online maybe this isn't a problem, for me in B&M it is. I don't have another game to go to.

Not loose games apparent, but a thought to consider. In a tight game we raise to steal the blinds and that's how we make much of our profit. We aren't going to steal anything in a loose game preflop, so the value of a raise goes down. Final loose game examples:

1. Six players to the river w/ two examples.

1a. We cap every betting action all the way through to the river and our QQ wins it's expected rate.

1b. We flat bet preflop and jam when our QQ looks like it will be the round favorite.

It appears intuitive to me that the second example has more upside potential because of the smaller up front investment. The prebet capping in the first example does not need to be made back and improves profit because pot money quicly exceeds prior investment.

I tend to give more chips to a nut flush draw than QQ preflop because the odds of my draw improving are better than my QQ improving. If memory serves me it's 5:1 for the draw and 8:1 for QQ to improve.