Pushing against Big Stack

PrayingMantis · #1 12-25-2003, 04:53 PM

Hi all, this is a question that bothers me from time to time.

10+1 SNG, 5 left, blinds 100/200. Stacks: 5000, 2800, 2500, 1800, 1200. Sadly, I am the 1200.

Getting A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on UTG+1, problem is: big stack is right to the left of me.

As a short stack, I think I must go in. But if big stack is ready to call me with almost anything pre-flop, wouldn't it be better to just raise min., get the blinds out (UTG already folded), and try to push it on the flop? I think I might have a better EV that way, because on the flop this guy folds many times if he didn't hit (and of course, he's just an example here. Many players act the same).

In the situation described above he called my all-in with 44. Flop: KQx. I think I could have pushed him out by betting my rest T800, say, there, if I wasn't in already. And that would be the case with many other flops. But since I'm all-in, I'm going to bust about 50% of the time, and there's nothing I can do about it.

Well, what do you think? Still for the all-in? What are your thoughts regarding going-in as a small stack against different kinds of big stacks?

PrayingMantis

redwings03 · #2 12-25-2003, 08:38 PM

I know this is a question of long term EV but I know long term EV also hinges on exploiting small short term +EV situations repeatedly. I would rather the big stack call me with anything because this will discourage other hands (perhaps hands that might be far more likely to beat me) from calling knowing they could have to tangle with a big stack and an unkown all in. So you push all in with AQ off and the big stack comes in with K 4. This is a good situation. Maybe he beats you sometimes but long run you come out ahead and you get the full value of a double up. If you bet small you may well find yourself against 3 callers...now you are facing K-4 ,J-10, 5-5. Which do you prefer?

whiskeytown · #3 12-25-2003, 08:43 PM

statistically, once you push in that 1/3 of your stack, you're somewhat pot committed - so even the min. raise there wouldn't help...since you're only a 3/1 fav. even over hands like 72o

I'd rather push it all in - I need to play the 50/50 draws when I'm down to 6xbb - and more often then not, I will either not get called, or get called by KQ/A with a rag kicker, etc - and occasionally the 50/50 draw, yes...but STILL - if you let yourself get that shortstacked with blinds that big, all-in play is the best, IMHO - RB

chesspain · #4 12-25-2003, 08:50 PM

Sometimes you just have to go toe-to-toe. Earlier this week, near the end of a 2000 player Paradise freeroll, I'm in 35th position out of 50; only top five earn anything more than pocket change.

I'm in MP and dealt KK. An EP player limps, I raise 4x the BB, folded to huge stack in LP who calls, everyone else folds. Flop comes something like 359r. I push all-in, he calls immediately, shows 99, and I'm soon busted out. Although I knew he could bust me, I obviously had to push all-in, since only AA and 99 were beating me.

Those are the breaks! [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

PrayingMantis · #5 12-26-2003, 03:19 AM

Thanks for the replies. In the example, I mistakenly wrote that a flop of KQx came, and I meant KJx (I'm holding AQ), A flop that doesn't improve me and leaves him ahead with 44. But you saw what I meant.
Yes, in a second and third thought I realize that it's better to isolate big stack than to invite even one more caller to participate. I guess 50-50 situations against big stack while I'm the short one are the best I can get.

CrisBrown · #6 12-26-2003, 03:45 AM

Hiya P.M.,

I think I'm more likely to do the half-and-half (what Greg calls the stop-and-go) when I'm on a baby pair rather than on high cards. On high cards -- e.g.: AQo -- if I'm short-stacked, I'm usually going to get all of my chips in pre-flop and hope to take it down right there, or at worst be heads up vs. a pair. And often I'll be heads-up vs. a hand I have dominated, where I don't want my opponent to be able to get away from the hand.

Conversely, on a baby pair, it's more likely that I'll be ahead of a caller pre-flop, and I'd like them to have as few chances as possible to outdraw me. So I'll do the half-and-half -- push half my stack pre-flop and the rest on the flop -- hoping the caller hasn't hit and will fold there.

Note that if you decide to do the half-and-half (stop-and-go), you HAVE to push the rest of your chips in on the flop, no matter what hits. You have no other leverage in this pot, and you've left yourself too little leverage for another steal-raise later. So you're just as pot-committed as if you'd gone all-in pre-flop.

Cris

PrayingMantis · #7 12-26-2003, 01:14 PM

Hey Cris,

Thanks for the new term (stop-and-go). If I understand it right, the idea is that on the flop alone, 3 first cards, medium-small pairs are much better than 50% against over-cards. 50-50 is only when you consider the whole five cards of the final board. Thus, it makes sense to push with your PP only after the flop, where most of the time you will be ahead of the over-cards that called your raise, and might make them fold. And of course, the opposite when you hold the over-cards: you want to get to see the whole board at once and by that improve your overall chance against your opponent's PP.

I will start to apply it and see how it goes (and stops-and-goes).

PrayingMantis