A,A in partypoker 200k guaranteed tourney

[otter]

I was playing for 5 hours in their tournament and playing tightly also. Out of 1488 people there were just over 100 left. The top 80 places got paid. I had 20,000 in chips and the tournament leader had 40,000. I picked up A,A UTG and raised the minimum (1200 total). It was heads up w/ me and the guy in 3rd position who had about 22,000 in chips. The flop came K,9,8 w/ two clubs. I bet the pot (3300) and he raised me 3300. So the pot was $13,200 and I had about $15,500 left. I thought and though and went all in. He thought and though and called. The turn was a blank and the river was a K. He turned over K,Js and knocked me out. Would anyone have played the hand differently? I had the best hand on the flop and if I doubled up I would have been close to the chip lead.

Thanks in advance.

[Eihli]

I would have raised more preflop. 2400 or 3000 is what I'd have brought it to. Then again, if you had raised that much, you wouldn't have had a chance to double up on a guy that you were a big favorite against.

[John_Manley]

There is nothing you could have done. Basically you made a choice to try and milk AA in early position by only making a marginal opening bet because you wanted to be called. A player with a marginal hand called you. The flop comes and he hits his K with J kicker. At this point, he is probably sweating bullets but I doubt very seriously he will fold no matter high much you bet. After the flop and turn you have the best hand but the river burned you.

For myself, I have been burned too many times with AA. It makes me do things I do not ordinarily do. I think a lot of people get overconfident with this hand. Do get me wrong, it is a great hand but it must be played aggressively for it to benefit you. At this point in the tournament you are in excellent shape and will likely be in the money. From your early position I would have at least made a bet of 4x the BB. This way you are selecting out for really top starting hands such as KK, QQ, JJ, AK, and possibly AQ. If nobody calls you then be happy with the blinds. If someone does calls you then or even better raises you then go all-in. Some people would disagree with this but my feeling is you need to win this hand preflop with so much on the line. My philosophy in tournaments is to play tight and fold people with aggressive play preflop. Sorry man, that's poker.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Make it T1800 next time (3xBB). Make it 3x every time, so as not to telegraph your hand strength.

If he still calls (and you want him to call), you're still going to go broke this hand. But at least the bigger raise will do a better job of defining their hands, and also of causing them to make a bigger mistake when they do call.

If I had been in the big blind with T20,000 or anything like it, I would've called your mini-raise with a large fraction of starting hands. Then, you might have gotten it all-in against me on the flop after I flopped two pair or better on you, or maybe a straight/flush draw combo that made me the favorite over your AA even though my hand wasn't yet made.

You don't want, and it will happen less often if you raise more than the minimum.

Mini-bets and mini-raises are almost always the wrong play.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Moonsugar]

I would have bet over the pot on the flop due to 2 clubs. But I still would have gone broke.

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
Make it 3x every time, so as not to telegraph your hand strength.


[/ QUOTE ]
Greg, does "every time" mean every time you openraise in a tournament, or just every time you openraise when the blinds are meaningful?

I used to openraise 3xBB (literally) every time but my big pairs kept getting called and then busted by Q5o or something when the blinds were small...say 10-20 with avg. stack size of 1500. So, now I open in the 100 to 120 range (with 10-20 blinds) to narrow the field. I still get a caller (or more) nearly every time and I can bet with confidence when rags flop. After the second or third blind increase, I switch to the 3xBB open "every time" strategy.

Is this a reasonable approach or am I way out in left field?

Note: I play buyins in the $10-30 range over 90% of the time. I guess it's possible that my strategy works well at these levels, but will hurt me when I move up. All comments welcome...

[Hotrod0823]

A bit off topic but I do the same thing. A 3xBB raise with strong hands AA,KK, or QQ when blinds are 10/20 with all players having 1000 chips stacks it doesn't mean much.

I often will raise 5xBB for the lower Blinds and go to a 3xBB approach when blinds get up in the range for 75/150.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Che,

Yes, typically early in a tourney a standard raise should be more than 3xBB, simply because so many players look at absolute value rather than blind value. So in the first two rounds (10/20 and 15/30) my standard pre-flop raise is the greater of 5xBB or Pot+10% (if there are limpers).

After that, I generally stick with 3x or 4xBB as my open-raise. I stick with one or the other throughout a tourney, but I'm still switching between them and trying to decide which plays better for me.

The primary difference has to do with how they play in the end game. A 4xBB open-raise is MUCH less likely to get called late in a tourney, and at that point the blinds and antes are big enough that I'm happy to avoid showdowns. On the other hand, a 4xBB open-raise requires a larger stack to avoid the all-in-or-fold threshhold. And callers are almost certain be significant favorites to my average steal hand.

So far, I think 3xBB tends to be sufficient (and safer) at higher buy-in tourneys ($55 and up), whereas 4xBB seems to be more necessary at lower buy-in tourneys ($33 and under). But as I said, I'm still testing both and I haven't yet reached any firm conclusions.

Regardless, the min-raise on AA invited too many hands into the pot, and probably telegraphed his holding if it wasn't his standard open-raise. Personally, I love to see someone min-raise on AA when I'm in the BB, because I can afford to call with a wide variety of hands. And if that min-raise was out of profile for that player, I have an information edge; I know more about his hand than he does about mine. If I flop two-pair, or a pair-plus-four draw, I'm probably in for a good payoff.

Cris

[Myrtle]

There perhaps is a very important distinction to be made in regard to this question, and that is……. Is this live or online?

I have been a firm advocate of the 3x BB raise with premium hands. As Greg notes, if you do it consistently, it disguises your holdings and allows you to make plays at the pot depending on the table dynamics & situation. This strategy appears to work much better in live games, where one has an opportunity to eyeball the other players, and therefore make many more reads than one can in an online game.

Both Che & Cris Brown have mentioned the “lack of respect” that they have encountered when making a 3X BB raise in NL tournaments online. My anecdotal experiences thus far (6 + years on online play) tend to support what they’re saying. On top of that, it seems to me that as more inexperienced players join the online community, the situation appears to be worsening.

IMO, Cris hit it on the head by defining it as….”so many players look at absolute value rather than blind value”.

Now, if this is the case, does that mean that one should change one’s strategy in online NL tournaments? I think so, and I’m beginning to experiment with it.

Have you been at the same table for “a while”? If so, then you should have a reasonably good read on other players starting requirements and style of play (and they on yours). Once you’ve got the table dynamics down, then the correct strategy should become self-evident. As Che noted, everything else being equal, as the blinds increase, the 3X BB strategy seems to be more valid.

In this specific situation, I think we all agree that the 2x “mini-raise” is an invitation to disaster. This was discussed in another string here just a few days ago, and there are very few situations where it is correct to do so. The majority of times when you have AA early in this stage of a tournament, you’re going to get it all-in anyway. Why let someone in for bupkis so they can suck-out on you? As Greg pointed out, in this situation, he (along with me and many others) will call that mini-raise with the express purpose of flopping a hand that will take out big pairs.

Big pocket pairs are not automatically “entitled” to win large pots. If played incorrectly, they tend to LOSE large pots!

Make the proper raise in this case; at least 3x the BB. Given the scenario that you outlined, in your position I’m going to play AA pretty strongly, probably 5x BB, and I will be prepared to go allin on any re-raise. As I’m more than likely to act first post-flop, I will also be prepared to push all-in on just about any flop.

Had you played it this way, if the other player was poor, you still may have lost all your chips. That presupposes that he first called your pre-flop raise (which you want him to do), and then calls you’re your post-flop all-in bet.

Forgive my rambling in my response. Please remember that my comments on play are regarding THIS specific hand/situation and on-line play, where one does not have the advantage of being able to amass additional information as one does in live play.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Your mini-raise BTF killed you. Always raise more than the minimum. Mini-raises are the mark of weak players who are eager to get outdrawn. Players will often call a mini-raise with any old crap. Raise more and you'll win more small pots and lose fewer big ones.

al