Two hands against the same opponent

[rtrombone]

20-40 stud at the Bellagio.

I'm new and don't have a read on most of the table. Game seems tight, though. I bring it in with (Q3)3. A lady completes with the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Two guys call with medium cards. Queens and threes are completely live. I call. On 4th the lady has 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Spades were reasonably live. I bet with (Q3)3Q. Lady raises, both other players fold. I call. On 5th she catches a non-spade blank. I catch some blank, too. I bet and she calls. On 6th she catches the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. She checks, I bet, she raises. I think and call. She bets 7th in the dark. I catch a queen and raise. She looks at her cards and calls. She had kings in the hole but didn't fill up on 7th.

Anyone play it differently?

Later on, the guy to my right completes with a ten or nine and I raise with (QQ)x. My doorcard was some rag, a 4 or something. Lady cold-calls with 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Diamonds were reasonably live. Everyone but the completer folds. I catch a 6 or something. Completer checks, I bet, lady raises with 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Completer folds. I 3-bet. She 4-bets. I call. On 5th I catch a deuce and the lady catches an offsuit 7. She bets. Easy laydown? I didn't have either the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I mucked.

[Andy B]

On the first hand, I lean towards folding on third street.

On the second hand, what do you put her on? I figure probably a big pair in the hole, most likely bigger than Queens. I think you've made the pot too big to give up just yet.

[rtrombone]

You would muck a small pair/big kicker after two people have called the completed bet? Isn't there at least a decent chance the completer has JJ, TT or 99 in the hole (or worse)?

In the second hand, I put the lady on one of three hands: aces in the hole, rolled up fives or a straight-flush draw. That's it. She was on the passive side, so her raises really meant something. Given that I'm a big dog to the worst of these holdings (the straight got there on 5th), I thought folding was a no-brainer.

[Andy B]

(Q3)3 plays OK heads-up against a pair smaller than Queens. It is a lot less OK against Aces or Kings. If opponent had a Jack in the door, her most likely hand would of course be a pair of Jacks. With a Five in the door, it's harder to draw any conclusions. If she needs a pair Nines or higher to make this raise, there are six ways each that she can have 9s, 10s, Js, Ks, and As, and three ways she can have Qs. A little less than half the time, you're in not-so-good shape, against just her. I'm assuming that the other guys called $20 with reasonable hands. Queens-up is not going to hold up against three opponents often enough that it's worth drawing to. The extra opponents are a reason to fold, not a reason to call.

<font color="red">5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] </font> is also a straight flush draw, and it isn't there yet, although it is a favorite against a pair of Queens. If she had had a straight flush draw, though, wouldn't she try to keep the other guy in? With a few more bets in there, I raise myself, but I don't see too many passive ladies raising with draws. I think she has Aces, and that you have the odds to continue.

If she was passive, why three-bet her on fourth street?

[rtrombone]

Good points re: the first hand. If I'd known how tight the lady was when this hand came up, I'd have probably mucked. The chances of her having aces or kings in the hole would have been too great.

So if indeed you can put the completer on split jacks, would you call with (Q3)3 in a multiway pot? With (A3)3 you certainly would, right? Do you treat (K3)3 the same as (Q3)3?

Re: the second hand, I agree that aces in the hole were her most likely hand. You're right, she really wasn't the type to pump a draw. And I don't think she was sophisticated enough to pump it with rolled up fives, trying to represent a weaker hand. (Although she may have just decided the hell with it, the pot was big enough.)

I 3-bet on 4th for information. Because she was a relatively passive player, a 4-bet would tell me a lot. It let me know that she most likely had aces.

Now that I think about it, you may be right that I should have continued with the hand. There were 7.5 big bets in the pot. I would be able to fold if she made an open pair on 6th. In pair vs. pair situations, how do you decide if you have the odds to see 7th?

[Andy B]

With three opponents, I'll play the Treys with an Ace kicker, but not otherwise. Having an Ace kicker is much better than having a King kicker. The Queen kicker is significantly less valuable. Even if opponent has a Jack in the door, there's nothing to prevent her from having a big pocket pair. Aces-up will win its share against any number of opponents, but remember that you are still drawing to this hand.

One of the reasons that (A3)3 is playable against a big pair is that you can win by catching another small pair. Two small pair wins against a single opponent all the time. It does not win against multiple opponents very often.

[ QUOTE ]
In pair vs. pair situations, how do you decide if you have the odds to see 7th?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I also screw around with different scenarios on twodimes.net to see how good my guesses are. Basically, if there's been a bet on every street, you're getting proper odds to chase, or something pretty close. This is particularly true in this case, because you'll sometimes be able to save money if your opponent hits an open pair or an Ace.

[CJC]

Hi,

I'm new and don't have a read on most of the table.

I think this answers your first question. Assuming this 20-40 stud game has a $5 bring-in. I am not calling a completion with a pair and a Queen kicker without knowing how my opponents play. This would have been an excellent time to sit back and notice 1) what the raiser is raising with 2) what other opponents cold-call with.

As far as your second question..I think the pot is so big by 5th, that you could at least take off some cards. I am assuming your opponent had a set. P.S. -- Why did you 3-bet her on 4th?

CJ

[rtrombone]

In my second hand against the blonde lady I raised a completer with (QQ)x and she cold-called with the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. On 4th she caught the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and I caught a rag. I bet, she raised. I 3-bet.

I didn't think this play was at all strange. But both Andy and CJC asked me why I did it. Now, I had described the lady as a little passive. But I said this only because in my first hand against her, she didn't raise me with her kings in the hole when I pulled the stop and go on 5th. (I would have raised with her hand even if I thought there was a chance I was against two pair). So maybe I'm a little overaggressive...

Anyhow, when I get raised on 4th by somebody who is potentially on a draw, I will either 3-bet or stop and go if they catch a brick on 5th. I didn't put it beyond the lady to raise with a draw, but I didn't think she would 4-bet with one.

Those of you who are against the 3-bet, do you always choose the stop and go because you aren't that big of a favorite (if at all) against a draw on 4th street?

Btw Andy, the reason why I didn't put the lady on 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is because she would have had to cold-call two bets with 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on 3rd, and I couldn't see her doing that.

[Andy B]

I don't "always" do much of anything, but I am inclined to just call against what appears to be a good draw on fourth street and bet if fifth street comes out favorably because, yeah, the draw usually isn't that big of a dog, and can sometimes be a favorite. This also foils some people's "free card" plans.

If I knew that you were capable of folding a decent hand on fifth street (and now I do [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]) I'd four-bet your ass with a draw all the time. Nothing sweeter than taking down a pot with Seven-high. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

You've never seen anyone call two bets with a Five-high three-flush? I see it all the time. In fact, if my hand is very live, and I'm against a crowd of cooperative opponents, I might do it myself.

Reminds me of a $3/6 hand I played a couple of years ago. I start with (<font color="red">A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]</font>) <font color="red">7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] </font>. There's a completion and a raise in front of me. The raiser has an Ace in the door. He's a friend of mine and a decent if somewhat predictable player. He is very, very likely to have Aces or perhaps Kings in the hole for his raise. I call two bets, and five or six of us see fourth street. I catch the <font color="red">Q</font>[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and call the Ace's bet. On fifth I catch a Queen and bet out. Diamonds and Queens are live and I'm feeling frisky. On sixth I catch a third Queen and bet. The Ace has caught another Ace. His call confirms that he has trip Aces. On the river, I catch, you guessed it, the case Queen. Quad Queens, and I started with no Queen. Heh. This was a jackpot game, and one of my friend's side cards was a Jack. If he had caught another Jack, we would have hit the jackpot. This is one of only a couple of significant near-misses I've had.

Another friend, also a decent player but definitely not predictable, was highly critical of my third-street call. I still think it was OK, even knowing that two Aces were probably gone.