FLUSH DRAW (ATTN CROCKPOT)

[Lucky]

Limit player here, splashing around in NL, doing well and loving it at Party. Swings are less, frustration less, etc.

I bought the Ciaffone/Reuben book and it's great. Here's the question, how strong do you play flush draws on the flop when that's all you have, i.e. no pair or straight draw.

For example, in Party NL50 you limp in late position with A8c. You get the button. 5 bucks in the pot. Five see the flop.

Board is 2c 7c Qh. It's checked to player on your right. who bets the pot. You're both sitting on about 100.

What do you do???

[warlockjd]

Assuming the bettor is a typical party player, I call and expect to get his stack if a flush hits [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[AeonBlues]

oh jeezzz. Well, generaly I call. you might break even in the long run if you hit your hand, but a lot of players on the $50 tables aren't so gulible.

On ocastion you should raise about 3 X the bet, as long as you know the player isn't the type to come over the top with a marginal hand. This kind of a raise also works for getting more action when you flop a set. Even if you have 2 pair or better 80% of the time when you make the raise, a lot of players will turn into call stations because of the 20% chance you don't have your hand.

AeonBlues

[crockpot]

on this particular hand, i would call. the one thing that might make me fold is if someone behind me is on short money (<$20) and might just decide to go all-in with a mediocre hand like QJ after the $5 bet. on a less ragged flop, i would also have to consider the possibility of a check-raise, which is slim here unless a set is out.

generally speaking, there is no easy answer to the question of how to play a pure draw. the depth of stacks, texture of board, size of bets, how well the opponents play, whether you're hitting to the nuts, and much more all come into play. even in this hand, i would be more inclined to call this bet if i knew the early position players didn't like to check-raise, or that the bettor usually gives up his bluffs on fourth street (or gets scared with a hand like KQ when his bet is called), so i won't be bet out of the pot then if i am still drawing.

by the way, if your swings are lower at no-limit, either you're playing a relatively higher game at limit than no-limit, or you just haven't had many hands where your whole stack goes in.

[daryn]

crock..

i have heard this a lot.. i would think that the swings are greater in NL.. i mean, this just makes sense to me. but i always hear people argue that limit has bigger swings... which is it?

[crockpot]

it depends somewhat on your playing style, but i play a really conservative no-limit game and i still find my swings much higher than in limit.

i suspect that this comment about limit swings being higher is made mostly by people whose last limit session resulted in a big loss.

strangely enough, in my experience with limit and pot-limit omaha games, both high and hi-lo, my swings seem bigger relative to the stakes at limit. of course, this has a lot to do with how often omaha hands go from worthless to awesome (and vice versa) with the turn of one card.

[vector]

Hi,

My swings at $100 NL 1-2 are considerably lower than my swings at 5-10 limit. (Full handed play at both).

I tend to win 5 from 6 sessions at NL, whereas in limit it was more like 3 from 4, or 2 from 3.

One very obvious explanation is that my limit game is poor. Or that my game in general has improved, and I now happen to be playing NL.

Another reason may be that the fish in NL are just about giving their money away on Party, whereas in limit equally bad players will school together and reduce your advantage.

Funny thing happened to me a while ago, I was on holiday and without poker, reread HFAP about 6 times, and came back to test the waters at limit. Lost $600 at 3-6 (3 tables at once) in a single session. Admittadly a bad example since it is a single session only, but it was all I needed to decide I was a 100% NL player from now on. (I made back this loss the very next day on the NL tables, and went on to have a record month).

I think what may have happened was I took several of the marginal plays advocated by S&M and over did them way to much, partly because I had a feeling of "oh, its limit, you can defintiely play draws aggressively now, and second pair is a monster, he'll lay down his TP weak kicker if I show enough aggression here". Classic error right?

I do hope to play limit again in the future but for now am concentrating on NL, at least until the great Party fish fest is over (lets hope it never is).

Cheers,
vector

[theBruiser500]

I don't play limit hold'em but I'm going to venture my opinon anyway, there are less swings in NL hold'em.

danny

[daryn]

i just can't believe it when people say this! NO LIMIT...... how can the swings NOT be greater than limit?? maybe if you're talking about NL with .50-1 blinds compared to limit 50-100.. but it should be about relative swings. my limit game is my best, strictly theory driven.. i play the 6 max games, so my swings are obviously larger than the 10 handed games.. but i would think if i played NL 6 max the swings would be larger.

oh well.. i thought it was common sense.. but who cares really now that i think about it

[Lucky]

My experience has primarily been in Limit, where I've usually beaten the 1/2 Paradise and 2/4 Party games on multiple tables for a little less than 1bb/table/hr. (although my stats look better in Pokertracker because of the manna from heaven on Party this summer).

That being said, in the midst of winning months, I had two 125 bb downswings at party this summer when the games were the juiciest. That's just Limit.

You flop a set, get called by one guy on a gutshot, another
with four to a flush, someone else with an overpair, and they all have odds to call. They are playing properly and someone may run you down.

In NL, same situation, you sense the potential for action, and get all-in. While the flush draw might have gone all-in first, he probably won't call. The gutshot will fold, and the overpair has a decision.

You'll probably get one caller, and you're better than a 2 to one favorite. Do this enough, while not calling big bets, avoiding tangling with the crockpots and AeonBlues, and things are good.

The downside of NL, imho, is that if you're a heavy hitter, it will be tough to make the kind of money (in the games that are spread) one might see at party 6 max 15/30. Unfortunately, or fortunately, I'm not that heavy a hitter.