Is it possible for a table to be too bad to play?

[miket523]

I've been playing on the internet for a couple months at .50/1 mostly at Stars and UB. I usually see about 22% of the flops and have made some money. Most authors endorse looking for a table with a flop % of 40 or better. I've noticed at Pacific that the flop% are constantly 70%+. I've made money at Pacific but the bad beats are starting to wear on me. At least on Stars I got beat by decent hands. Is there an optimal flop% to look for? Is there a point at which a high flop% becomes a hinderance rather than a help? Any other comments on picking a table to play?

[Monty Cantsin]

The way I understand it, the more mistakes your opponents make the more you profit. Imagine a game where every opponent calls every bet on every street. It seems to me that you could make more money at that table than at a "typical" fishy table. The closer a real life game comes to this imaginary extreme the more profit you can expect from it as long as you can adjust your strategy accordingly. That's how it looks to me anyway.

/mc

[Inthacup]

Is there a point at which a high flop% becomes a hinderance rather than a help?

It depends on what you want. Typically, the higher the flops seen(by the table), the less hands you'll win. However, you'll win more each time your hand does hold up. It would take some extreme adjustments, but I would love to play at a table where everyone is seeing the flop.



Cup

[Bob T.]

No, but the variance could drive you buggy.

[CORed]

I don't have a mathematical analysis to back this up, but I believe based on experiencethat too many clueless players does reduce your EV. There is no question that it increases your variance. I think too many staying to the river is worse than too many seeing the flop. Of course, these often go together.

If you have the best hand, the more different hands that are drawing against you, the more board cards there are that will beat you. Of course, the pots will be bigger when your hand does hold up. However, I don't think there is a point where the game becomes unprofitable. I think, if you play correctly, you could make money even with 9 opponents that never fold. However, it would be quite a roller-coaster ride, and it might take a lot of hands before it was clear you're making a profit.

Personally, I like games with a lot of opponents who see the flop, but fold on the flop unless they get a good hand, with one or two who hang in to the river most of the time with middle pair, bottom pair, gutshots, etc. This type of game usually gives me a pretty steady win, whereas a game with lots of people hanging in to the river will have a lot of fluctuation. In any single session of such a game, I am likely to either win a lot or lose a lot.

[ACPlayer]

Seeing 22% of the flops may be too high a number. According to my pokertracker stats I am seeing about 15 percent of flops.

[jedi]

On a 10 handed table, that means you're seeing flops on your big blinds and half the flops on your small blind (for example). Isn't that too little?

[ QUOTE ]
Seeing 22% of the flops may be too high a number. According to my pokertracker stats I am seeing about 15 percent of flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

[J_V]

That's too low even in the toughest games.

I would probably be above 22% in very low limit games.

[Inthacup]

That's too low even in the toughest games.

I disagree

I would probably be above 22% in very low limit games

I agree

[chesspain]

The higher the flop percentage of the table, the more people who are putting in money to see the flop with crappy cards. Although you will win as much or more at these tables than at more "normal" percentage tables (i.e. 30-40%), your variance will be much higher, especially if people don't automatically fold if the flop misses them.

At very loose tables like these:

1) You need to be more astute at knowing when to let go of hands, and you need to accept that your premium pairs and TP/TK hands will get busted more frequently, although you make your money from the limpers and chasers on the majority of good hands you play in which they don't outdraw you.

2) You minimize your semi-bluffing unless the table is also very weak-tight.

3) You allow yourself to play more hands that can turn into monsters, like suited, one-gapped connectors, if you can usually see the flop for one bet.