I screwed this hand up, but can't figure out what I should have done.

[ZeeJustin]

Yes I know my play on this hand was awful. There's no need to point that out. Please let me know what I could have done instead.

It's a 36+3 stars no-limit satellite, 1 out of 6 people qualify. These things usually last 2.5 hours, and the hand in question is about 45 minutes in.

Blinds are 25/50. There's 8 players in this hand. The first 4 players fold. Cut off open raises the minimum, making it 100 to go. I have played a bunch of hands with this player, but don't have notes for him. This generally means he's tight as most my notes indicate misplays. He has 1800 chips, and I have about 3000. Players start with 1500, so I'm in fine shape at this point. Button calls, SB folds. I make it 350 to go with JJ in the big blind. The CO reraises me to 600. Button folds. I sense a trap, and just call here. Does anyone fold here?

Flop: KK2 rainbow
I check, he checks.

Turn: 9
I bet 1200, which is enough to put him all-in, he calls with aces and wins.

How could I have avoided this obvious trap? The flop and turn where great for me, so it's kind of hard to just check fold my hand.

[ReddTrain]

[ QUOTE ]
Blinds are 25/50. There's 8 players in this hand. The first 4 players fold. Cut off open raises the minimum, making it 100 to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak for Stars, but in LL Party NL/PL tourneys, the min-raise screams either AA or KK. Until a player shows me differently, I'm taking it as such.

[ QUOTE ]
I make it 350 to go with JJ in the big blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your goal with this raise? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] To run off the any-ace player on the button? You're not going to get the preflop raiser to run, ESPECIALLY if he's got what his min-raise is indicating.

IMO you have a call, but nothing more.

[ QUOTE ]
The CO reraises me to 600. Button folds. I sense a trap, and just call here. Does anyone fold here?

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, I don't know whether or not I fold here. He's begging for customers with two minimum raises back to back. It's either AA or KK, and I'd be shocked if it were KK.

You're risking 250 more chips against the 1075 pot + his 1200 left - and you want to see a flop with a J and no A (and possibly no K). Just guessing here, but you probably have pot odds at that moment, but you're not giving up too much by folding. In a cash game I think you have to call, but being a tourney makes it cloudier.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: KK2 rainbow
I check, he checks.

Turn: 9
I bet 1200, which is enough to put him all-in, he calls with aces and wins.


[/ QUOTE ]

When the flop comes down KKx, and he doesn't bet, you _have_ to know what he has. See if he'll give you the river for free as well.

When the river doesn't help you (or bring an A), bet at it...but my thinking is a bet that takes him all-in is more likely to be called than a smaller bet (say, 450).

Hope this helps...

Big John

[CrisBrown]

Hi Zee,

Okay ... let's take it from the top ... and keep in mind my comments are worth what you're paying for them. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

He min-raises. As Redd already said, that screams "reraise me ... please please please!" Still, with JJ in the BB, you were right to reraise him as a sniffer bet. When you did and he reraised again, that pretty much confirms that your JJ is at best a coin flip favorite (to AK) and, more likely, a big underdog (to AA or KK).

After his reraise (if I've done my math right) there's T1125 in the pot and it's T250 for you to call, giving you 4.5:1 on your call. That's not enough to justify a call at a set (if you put him on a bigger pair), but it's plenty to justify a call at dodging an A or K (if he's on AK). I'd probably make this call, given the relative likelihood of his having AA, KK, or AK.

Once that flop hits, though, you're done. Every possible hand that he could reasonably be playing has you dead now. If he was on AK, he's hit a set. If he was on KK, he's hit quads. If he was on AA, you're still dead to two outs.

You have no choice here but to check it down, and fold if he bets. Sorry.

Cris

[ReddTrain]

[ QUOTE ]
He min-raises. As Redd already said, that screams "reraise me ... please please please!" Still, with JJ in the BB, you were right to reraise him as a sniffer bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you feel the need to make a sniffer raise here? If I'm the enemy here (assuming I forgot to adjust the raise before I clicked the button...the only way I'd ever make the min-raise play), I flat-call the raise out of the BB. What hands were you able to rule out me having? Then, unless the flop comes really, really bad (or really, really good...like AAx), I'm going all-in on the flop...what's your decision now?

TOP talks about raising for information, saying that it's rarely reason enough by itself to make the raise...but I don't see any other reason behind this play. Feel free to enlighten me though...

Big John

[CrisBrown]

Hi Redd,

I don't like to flat call on JJ in this situation. His minimum raise says either a monster, high cards (AQ, KQ, etc.) a medium-small pair, or a suited connector ... and a smooth call doesn't give me anything to narrow that range.

If high cards hit the flop, I have to be cautious because he might be on overcards. If undercards fall, I have to be cautious because he might have spiked a set or flopped a straight draw. The only flop I can really trust is the 1:8 chance that I'll hit a set.

Because I'm going to be out of position, and probably uneasy no matter how the flop falls, I don't like the flat call with JJ. I can't fold JJ vs. a minimum raise (it may be the best hand), and I don't want to move all-in in case he does have a monster, so for me the sniffer reraise is the only viable play.

It will usually tell me if his was a teaser raise, or a weak raise. If it's a weak raise -- that is, he's on a hand he doesn't really love, but he'd rather not play it against a random BB hand -- my reraise will usually make him fold.

If he just calls me, I'm going to suspect a smaller pair or at best not a hand that has me dominated, as he's given up a chance to draw me in even deeper.

If he reraises me, I confirm that his was a teaser raise, and I know exactly where I stand in the pot.

Keep in mind I'd only make this reraise if I were deep enough that I wouldn't much care about folding if he plays back at me. In this case, the poster was deep enough, so the sniffer bet was, in my opinion, the right play. What he did after the sniffer bet was suspect, but the sniffer bet was good.

Cris

[ReddTrain]

Cris -

I'm guessing we must be playing different games, or at least vastly different opponents.

You put a min-raiser on basically the same range of hands I'd put a limper on. In the tourneys I've played (and I'm sure you've played at least an order of magnitude more than I have), a min-raise is American Airlines so often that I make notes of players who min-raise _without_ AA or KK. In other words, I assume that I have to beat aces when I see a min-raise from a random player. (Of course, if someone min-raises 3 times in 2 orbits, I'm going to start getting a little suspicious.)

Another reason I don't like the sniffer raise in this scenario is that I don't like to give info about my hand. I have a good idea of what my opponent has, but I don't want him to have the same advantage (he already has the best hand - I gotta have _some_ compensation). A sniffer raise almost earmarks QQ-99 or AK IMO. I'd rather not have AA on guard if my pair in that range hits a set. The converse is that you may succeed in bluffing a set in that range, but you have to know your opponent is capable of laying down AA.

Bottom line: I highly suspect my opponent has AA or KK. He's laying me 39.5-to-1 to outflop it (my T50 call to the T275 pot + the T1700 in his stack), when the true odds of a J flopping without an A or K is probably closer to 10- or 12-to-1. I think it would be foolish of me not to take that bet.

Big John

[Guy McSucker]

That flop of KK2 is excellent for you, in some sense: you know absolutely that you are behind unless he has AQ or a smaller pocket pair. Unless he's a lunatic he doesn't have AQ. 99 or TT are kind of possible but very unlikely I think. If he played that bad you would have a note by now.

The turn clears things up further. You are only beating TT. Give it up.

Also, make a note that a minimum preflop raise from this guy is AA. If you see him do it again, you can be pretty sure he's got aces again. People who make these minimum raises tend not to mix it up.

Before the flop, I am not sure I like your reraise. You are out of position and an overcard will flop half the time. If he flat calls, you will have a hard time on the flop. If he moves in, you have to fold. If he makes another minimum raise, well, he's just not playing very well I guess [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

The second raise from him really does look like an overpair, so I think with your chip stack, the pot and implied odds are there to fish for a set, just. You can be pretty sure you will get all his chips if you hit it, so you're getting about 9-1.

The odds are especially good against this opponent because it seems as though he's going to let you see all five cards for this price, and then bust him when you river a jack. Excellent.

Guy.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

In this case, my default approach is to consider the limit raise a trap and just call. Then on this flop, if checked to, I'd make a pot-size bet. If he does anything but fold, I'll have to believe I'm behind, but I'll likely get to see the river (and maybe even go to a showdown) for free.

[Lost Wages]

Then on this flop, if checked to, I'd make a pot-size bet.

You are first to act.

Lost Wages

[CrisBrown]

Hi Redd,

While I am leery of a minimum raise, I see people minimum raise on a variety of hands, in part to force the BB and limpers to make decisions, and in part to mix up their play so they'll get action when they do min-raise on AA or KK.

Likewise, I would make the same "sniffer bet" from the BB if I held AA or KK, hoping to be reraised so *I* can move all-in. Again, to mix up my play and give myself cover for when I do it with a medium pair against KK.

Cris