Nasty People PT 2

[jim grass]

Al I remember one of my trips to binions and sitting there observing some mope go beserko because he was being pummelled by a much superior player and throwing cards at the dealer and degrading him to the hilt.
I was stunned.
Being from ontario this behaviour is not even remotely tolerated.The dealer on occasion has called over the floor person and had a player removed.
Any foul language and your warned ONCE by the dealer.
The bad behaviour seems to be among my 10 - 20 peers and not among the low limits.
The rec LL players are there more for fun and the ML player takes his game more serious.
Still being a jerk has no place at the table.

[Mike]

Unfortunately too many people are like this in all areas of our lives. We can be happy knowing poker isn't the only source of their frustration. What makes it bad for us is their actions are rewarded enough that they keep using the same behavior because they are rewarded often enough.

In B & M's I have played at, poor social skills were tolerated more often than not. Only in one poker room did I see a player swear and be warned by a dealer who meant it. The player took heed, and changed his choice of phrases after that. It was a very pleasant game!

[CrisBrown]

Hi jim,

I hope this will improve as poker becomes more popular, more accepted and "respectable," and less of a shady, back room game played by "gamblers."

In some ways, the image of the game is still locked in old Westerns. Too many people approach it as a test of their manhood, a Showdown at the O.K. Corral complete with steely-eyed glares, muttered threats, abusive language, and an attitude of "this table ain't big enough for both of us...."

Worse, too many players -- who might otherwise be pleasant table companions -- think this is how successful players approach the game ... by "psyching out" opponents, trying to make opponents angry, intimidation, etc. So they sit down at the table and try to imitate a style of behavior that isn't really even their own. Alas, once they commit their testosterone to the situation, they don't want to back down.

So, ever the optimist, I think televised programs like the WPT, WSOP, Showdown at the Sands, and the like will help to ease the abusive play situation, as they change the image of what "successful" poker really is: a game of calm skill, careful consideration, and measured aggression. And maybe they'll even recognize what many of the best players know: that people don't mind losing so much when they lose to a gracious, courteous opponent.

Or maybe I'm just deluding myself....

Cris

[rkiray]

At The Lodge in Blackhawk CO, most of the dealers are good about warning people about bad language. Minor cursing is more or less ok, but really obscene language is basically not allow (the f word and c word for example). Works well in my opinion. Much nicer atmosphere than the typical Vegas room. Also in Indiana I've only played at the Ceasar's by Louisville. Most of their customers come from Kentucky which has the southern politeness going for it. So the players behavoir every time I've been there (only three times, but 5-8 hours each time) is much nicer than the typical Vegas room. Of course as was pointed out in another thread I started in the SS forum, the southern politeness is actually based over a violent culture. People are politer in KY because many of the things I've heard in Vegas card rooms would result in fist fights in KY.

[Mike]

Not on topic, but my wife and I were in a not so great part of a big town once for lunch. She said as we left how polite everyone was. Go figure. I think you are right on with your post!

[squiffy]

I think it's just an unfortunate downside of American culture. There is much that is wonderful about American culture. But in the last decade or two, disrespectful, boastful, rude behavior towards others has become more and more and more ACCEPTABLE.

You see this in professional sports, movies, and videos. More and more vulgar language, more and more rude conduct towards officials. Anything goes.

I don't like it at all. But it's a complicated problem. No one really understands why.

Maybe this is why America has so much more violent crime per capita than almost any other industrialized nation. And many many many more serial killers and spree killers.

Many other nations in Europe, Africa, Asia, and Central America are much more communitarian. America is hyper individualistic.

Taken to the extreme, the attitude here is, do whatever the hell you want and SCREW everyone else. I think in many other nations the average person cares much much more about how his actions, words, and behaviors will affect others in his community.

Possibly it is because America is so much more diverse than many other countries, it is more likely that people will disagree and less likely that they will have some common cultural norm regarding how to behave. And America is much less comfortable telling individuals that only certain kinds of conduct are acceptable.

Americans also work longer hours and I think tend to be overly materialistic.

But the good thing about America is that we have the power and abilty to invade countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. And no one can tell us not to. So HAH HAH HAH.

[mosch]

I just wish there was a rule 'Don't be an [censored]', instead of many of the rules in the card rooms. This weekend at Foxwoods I had a great time, and made nice with many of the regulars, but there were two people in particular who managed to remove every once of fun and civility from the game without actually breaking any of the rules.

The one guy drove away so much action bitching and moaning about backdoor flushes and such things, even when they had enough other outs to make their play correct, and another guy who just needed to be issued a haircut, a shave, a new wardrobe and a large case of 'STFU'. He stopped a game for five minutes to get a floor ruling on whether or not he really had to pay both a large and small blind after missing his blinds, and was just generally unpleasant and slightly threatening with many of his words. Never enough to be sufficient to get the floor involved, but enough to make the table lousy.

Fortunately, I must say, aside from those few circumstances, the players at foxwoods were great. Most of them were gracious in both victory and defeat, and the regulars I met were all very friendly, and by today I was getting invited by them to sit in their games, despite the fact that they clearly respected my play.

[RydenStoompala]

I think it's a global phenomenon. I played in Paris and London in the past year and I would put some of those &%%holes up against anyone I've ever seen blow a gasket in Vegas. I'm from painfully polite Canada and we have a higher dork ratio than most places I've played in the US. I'll take the USA anyday for poker.

[BillE]

i have played many more hours online than in a casino environment. maybe i do not have a good feel of how ugly sitations are handled by the floor. several years back, when i was a newer player, i was involved in an incident.

i made a 3 bet isolation raise against a guy clearly steaming and on tilt. a decent amount of money went in the pot considering it was head up. at showdown, my ace king high was the best hand. needless to say he wasn't happy about it and berated my play a bit. i was happy with the result and figured i'd let him grumble on for a little bit, but when it went on for a minute or so i thought it had gone too far, so i shot a quick one liner back to him. this escalated the situation and the confrontation ended when he threw a lit cigarette at me. the dealer called the floor and there was a bit commotion. when the floor came over, everyone was talking at once.. i got his attention, said "he threw a lit cigarette at me", then turned around and sat silent.

i was shocked when the floor's answer to this situation was for us both to take a 15 minute time out. i accepted and sat at another table and started reading cardplayer. the other player refused to get up from the table and was eventually escorted out of the casino by security.

the fact that we were both "punished" equally doesn't seem right to me. and is a 15 minute break adequate for someone throwing a lit cigarette at a player?

[Al Schoonmaker]

The floor MAY have been right to tell you to take a 15 minute break. He wanted you to cool off. And you are to be commended for sitting quietly instead of escalating the conflict.
I believe he was CERTAINLY wrong for not ejecting the other player. A lit cigarette can do a great deal of damage. For example, if it had severely injured your eye, the casino could have lost massive damages. I'm not a lawyer, and I could be wrong on this point.
"Nasty People" (part I) was started to get information about incidents in which casinos have gotten seriously hurt by being too lax in enforcing the protections they are legally and morally required to provide to their customers. I would very much like to hear from a lawyer, especially a torts specialist. Is the example given at the start of the first "Nasty People" thread relevant here? Are casinos taking a huge risk by allowing people who have demonstrated potentially dangerous tendencies to continue to play?
Regards,
Al