TR4RAIDERS1 - all-in abuse (poll)

[Gaming Club]

Hi all

Background
A short while ago we ran a $10k “Dash4Cash” freeroll. In brief, we mistakenly allowed all-in protection on the tourney, and a fiasco ensued as all but one of the top 10 finishers received all-in protection at some point during the event.

Most noticeably, the eventual winner (TR4RAIDERS1) pre-announced his intention to make use of the all-in protection facility. This led to much debate on this forum (see here for the original thread, including chat transcript), including calls for the complete disqualification of the winner and the forfeiture of his winnings.

Conflicting points of view
When the incident happened, TR4RAIDERS1 was one of 3 remaining players, and he had gotten that far without making use of the all-in protection (AAP) facility. In contrast, both of this opponents had (note that we have not attempted to verify whether or not they did so intentionally), as had 6 of the remaining top 10 finishers in the event.

Essentially therefore, two different arguments have been presented:
[*] Everyone was doing it, so why should he in particular be made to suffer? 9 out of the top 10 winners received AAP, more than likely mostly intentional, so picking on this guy isn’t entirely fair.
[*] Everyone might have been doing it, but he was the only one (that we know of) that publicly announced his intention to abuse the AAP facility. He therefore knew that what he was doing was wrong (he in fact apologised for doing so), and to let him off sends completely the wrong message to other players who don’t abuse the AAP facility when it suits them.

So what do we do about it?
In essence we are left with three courses of action here:
[*] Let it go, on the basis that is unfair to pick out one guy when probably a majority of the remaining players (and certainly a majority of the winners) were equally guilty.
[*] Make an example of this case by disqualifying him and forfeiting his winnings ($1,800) entirely. The aim of this would be to send an unambiguous message that we are prepared to be tough on provable cases of AAP abuse.
[*] Take the middle road and forfeit the difference in his winnings between first and third position ($800). This would make it clear that AAP abuse is unacceptable but would recognise to some extent that he was not the only guilty party in this debacle.

Something that we should perhaps leave unsaid (but won’t) is that the above 3 options ignore the truly brave alternative of voiding the entire event (including everyone’s winnings) and running it again from scratch.

We will freely admit that we have excluded this as an option because we believe it to be impractical and commercially foolish. Without expending an extreme amount of resources we would not be able to determine who was guilty of AAP abuse and who wasn’t, which means that it is a virtual certainty that at least one of the winners will be legitimately aggrieved if we were to forfeit their winnings and require them to play the event again. It is also highly unlikely that we would find a new time that would suit all the original contestants (just finding a time for StoneAge to play rigoletto is proving impossible [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). Criticise us for this exclusion by all means, but at least please understand our predicament in this matter.

Our proposed resolution
We would like to resolve this matter by reference to majority vote on this forum.

If the decision is that all or part of TR4RAIDERS1’s prize money should be forfeited, we will thereafter hold a charity freeroll for the amount of money involved, plus an equivalent match amount that we will contribute as penance for our mistake, on a “winner’s charity takes all basis”.

Invitees to the freeroll will be any and all players who make a serious contribution to this thread, and TR4RAIDERS1 will also be invited to play so that you can all see that, despite his error of judgment in regard to this matter, he is not such a bad guy after all (in all our telephone and email correspondence on this matter he has been nothing less than civil in all respects, despite the potential loss of his $1,800 winnings).

If the freeroll is held, we’ll provide an email address for contributors to this thread to mail to in order to get invited to the event, so please don’t PM us re this – we’re already drowning in a pond of PMs as it is [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

We will ask the winner to nominate three charities, out of which we will select one to make a donation to in the winner’s name. We will retain a veto right over the charities if we believe them to be unsuitable in any way.

We recognise that putting this matter to a vote is a potentially dangerous precedent, so we will include a caveat that we reserve the right to overrule the vote if the subsequent comments in this thread (particularly those from the Pooh-Bahs and Carpals) substantially contradict the results of the vote. We’ll also say that, as much as we’d like to put all future issues to a vote, we more than likely won’t always be able to do so, so please don’t bear a grudge against us in cases where we feel we have to make a decision without taking a vote first.

Anyway, here’s the vote:

[Lori]

The first thing I think you should try to do, (you are not going to like this) is to wade through as much as you can of the tournament and try to get an idea if he used his all-in because everyone else was doing it, or if he just suddenly decided to cheat.

This guy has been around for a very long time on Stars, and although the cheating option doesn't exist there, I have never had a problem with him in any other regard.

It might also be a possibility to email Pokerstars and ask for advice, I know this is highly unusual, but it is an unusual scenario.

If you deem that he did it because others were doing it, although this is a lame excuse, I think that he should be let off, as he didn't really win the tournament unfairly.
If however you feel that 'he started it', which from your description, my guess is that he didn't, then he should lose out.

I know you can say that nobody should deserve to win because they all probably cheated, but when one or two start abusing, these things become self-preservation, and I am not sure if anyone here can HONESTLY say that there are no scenarios at all where they would be tempted to abuse this facility. (If every other player in the tournament is going to abuse it, and I am playing at a smaller site (Afraid that means you) then I'm going to have to find a way to protect myself.

The sum of this rant is that, although I'd love a charity tourney, I think that he should probably keep the winnings.
Taking them off him sets a dangerous precident for such an unclear case.
(Unclear in the fact that it seems the tourney was "fair" due to all the cheating being equal)

Lori

[ReddTrain]

I read the original thread, but since I did not participate in the tournament, I did not feel it was my place to express an opinion.

However, since the site is now asking for opinions, here's my $.02.

I voted for option 3. It seems like the most fair option of those listed. However...

Would it be possible to reconstruct the tournament from that point and play it out to its logical conclusion? It's obvious from the offender's actions that he could not call the bet, so treat his all-in as the fold it should have been, then bring the three players back at a mutually-agreeable date and time with the chip stacks they would have had and let them replay the end of the tournament?

In this scenario the people who would benefit would be the players who were at the final table, which seems like the most just alternative. The only possible failing would be if the player who finished second originally wound up finishing third this time -- in that scenario, the site should pay two second-place finishers as their "mea culpa".

Big John

[Mike Haven]

i am virtually 100% certain in my own mind that the great Ray Zee said in one of these forums a long time ago that if all-ins are "allowed" then use them (if it wasn't Ray Zee, my apologies to him, but it was certainly as high a profile professional)

at the time i was shocked to read his comments, but i have to admit it would be very hard not to use an all-in if it was "in the rules", so to speak, and others were using them at opportune moments throughout the tournament

i vote that in these unfortunate circumstances he has to be allowed to keep the money

[HavanaBanana]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone was doing it, so why should he in particular be made to suffer? 9 out of the top 10 winners received AAP, more than likely mostly intentional, so picking on this guy isn’t entirely fair.
Everyone might have been doing it, but he was the only one (that we know of) that publicly announced his intention to abuse the AAP facility. He therefore knew that what he was doing was wrong (he in fact apologised for doing so), and to let him off sends completely the wrong message to other players who don’t abuse the AAP facility when it suits them.


[/ QUOTE ] There was another one doing it surely on purpose too, forgot his name and it was early on, but I sendt you an email.

When the riots in LA was going on, was it an excuse for looter number 500 that 499 had looted before?
I think not!
There is not a single game, cash game or tournament where a on purpose allin is allowed, so the fact that allins were technically allowed does not mean that anyone should think it was to be used for purposfully CHEATING.
I came 15th in this tourney, and I had cheaters use the allin against me multiple times.
I don't care about that, no way to rectify it, and I don't want any of the money forfitted by the cheaters, however I would like to see as many cheaters as possible be made an example of, so I am voting that no money should be given to anyone proved guilty on usin allins on purpose(Cheating).
Admittance of using allin on purpose constitutes guilty as charged.

[ QUOTE ]
Make an example of this case by disqualifying him and forfeiting his winnings ($1,800) entirely. The aim of this would be to send an unambiguous message that we are prepared to be tough on provable cases of AAP abuse.

[/ QUOTE ]
YES!

The fact that he did it at the end of tourney, making it more EV+ than if he did it early on when blinds were low makes it more worse than better.

If you think it is ok to have angleshooters frequenting you site, then do nothing.
To have a Vote is quite redicculous as anyone can create X new names and vote either way.

[Joe Tall]

I did not read the preivous thread, nor am I an experienced online-tournament player, such as Lorinda, as I spend all my time in cash-limit games; I will add my opinion.

As far as anything goes in life, if there is a rule that can be exploited, yet, you still are not 'breaking a rule', be it unsportsmanlike or not, you are allowed to do it. It happens in professional sports all the time, like the NFL.

He did not break a rule and I believe it would be an injustice to the winner if he was punished by the organizer who made the mistake in the first place.

I think GC learned a hard lesson here.

Peace,
JT

[HavanaBanana]

[ QUOTE ]
at the time i was shocked to read his comments, but i have to admit it would be very hard not to use an all-in if it was "in the rules", so to speak, and others were using them at opportune moments throughout the tournament


[/ QUOTE ]

In that case it would be ok to use allins at party SnG's or any tournament, cause they do allow it technically, sorry but thats the reason I have limited my tournaments there to a minimum lately, and it is NOT an alternative for me to do it too, even if anyone or everyone else is doing so.

Two wrongs doesent make a right, atleast not in my universe.

[gabyyyyy]

I think that while what he did was wrong, it truly was the TGC's negligence that allowed it to happen. Furthermore, if 75 percent of the tourney players were doing the same exact thing, he was somewhat justified in his actions.

It is also important to note, that it appears he was just doing it to stay on a level playing field so to speak.

My final opinion would be to give him his winnings, and take it as a learning process for the TGC. I bet after all of this panic about the subject, you guys will be more careful setting up tournaments next time. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[jasonHoldEm]

I think this falls under the "everyone else is doing it" frame of mind. It certainly is an unfortunate incident, but trying to fix something where everyone (seems) to be guilty is a dangerous game.

Let him keep the money, admit your mistake, and take steps to prevent anything like this from happening in the future. Luckily, most people in the online world have short memories.

Jason

EDIT: (I realize you've already admitted your mistake on the issue).

[HavanaBanana]

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, if 75 percent of the tourney players were doing the same exact thing, he was somewhat justified in his actions.


[/ QUOTE ]

So if almost everyone elses daughter gets raped it would be somewhat justified to rape yours?
Sad to hear that.
Oh, that is illegal and immoral, I heard rumours that was a little bit outside your field of expertice. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]