Help me analyze this NL HE game structure at my local B&M

[Dentist]

There is a NL game that has been started at my local B&M on Thursdays.

It's been going a little over 2-3 months.

The game has a minimum buy-in of $100, and a max of $200
There are 2 blinds, 2 for SB, 5 for BB

I probably need to go down and just observe the game one night to see how it plays, but based on this structure, tell me some of your observations.

Here are mine:
1) The blinds seem high for the amount of money you can have.
Basically, if you bought in for the full amount, which seems like it would be the best idea, you only have 40 Big Blinds.
I've played a small amount of NL online and the blinds seem proportionally higher in this game to online.

Would this encourage a little more looseness considiering the price of 'waiting'?

2) would there be any "advantage" to buying in for the minimum or somewhere in-between, so get all-in early and double up?

3) As I said, i'm not sure about the game conditions, toughness, etc. I should probably go watch it sometime.
I've read Ciaffone's book, Brunson's book, and have played a fair amount of tournament NL (yes, i know the differences)

Any thoughts observations, strategy adjustments here for a game that has a max buy-in that seems low?

[Paul2432]

See some of the other recent threads on short money NL play. In general though hands that rely on implied odds go down in value. The game will play more like a limit hold'em game. That is small pairs and suited aces are worth less and big pairs and ace with a big kicker hands are worth more.

Note that in a game like this pay close attention to stack size. I would expect that after a couple of hours to find at least a couple $500 plus stacks. If you also have managed to build a decent stack you need to know who you are messing with and adjust accordingly.

I would be curious to hear what others think about playing in a a game with a variety of stack sizes.

Paul

[Dentist]

Good post Paul.

In fact, that is another thing I was going to mention.
I spoke to someone who played in the game and they mentioned that the game definitely was dynamic in how it changed as a few people accumulated chips.

Those $500 stacks playing on "someone else's" money were bushwhacking pots with amounts that were "less relevent" to them, but more so to you if you had either an average or below average stack.

Of course, this just flat applies to NL in general, if there are fixed buy-ins.

I had not considered reverse implied odds going down.... Wouldn't a consealed set or flush draw still have the "doubling" though effect that you are going for?
Well, i do realize the pay-off isn't quite as good for that now that i'm thinking about it...

Although I keep thinking about Ciaffone's statement, if someone is gonna go broke with top pair, it rates to be YOU.

At any rate, I figure i'll go down to the casino and just watch the game for an hour or so..
What would you look for besides: aggressiveness, possible tells, and general mechanics of play?

[Guy McSucker]

This looks like a very short-stack game, at least until people start doubling up and others reloading.

With 20-40 BBs in front of you, you should be looking to have the best hand on the flop. Most of the money will go in on the flop round of betting, which means that drawing hands are charged to play but cannot reap rewards later (no implied odds); on the other hand, made hands can do the charging and will not be paying off very much later (no reverse implied odds.)

Thus your preferred starting hands should be the big pairs and AK. Raise them preflop so as to manipulate pot size: you want to move in on the flop if you like your hand at that stage.

The stacks are just about big enough to play smaller pocket pairs for a set, but only if there is no raise. I wouldn't want to limp with e.g. 55 from early position in this game, unless preflop raises are very rare and I were sure I could get paid off when I hit.

I think 40BB is a very tough stack size to play correctly. It's a little large to move in readily on the flop, but not big enough to play suited connectors and the like. For that reason I might be tempted to start with 20BB, although if everyone had 40BB and didn't know how to play it, I would want to cover them.

The other point to watch for is that the stacks will grow as the game progresses. Your strategy should change accordingly...

Guy.

[Paul2432]

Dentist,

I am glad you liked the post. Remember Ciaffone's rule for drawing hands is play for less then 5% of your stack*, fold for more then 10% and use your judgement in between.

The corrallary to this is if you hold a big pair or AK and you can make a reasonable pre-flop raise for more then 10% of your stack size your opponent is probably making a mistake by calling.

Paul

*by "your stack" I really mean the smaller of stacks between you and your opponent.

[ZeroGee]

This is very much like the Commerce NL game. That has a min and max buy-in of $100, with $2 and $3 blinds. That's an even higher blind structure than your 2-5 $200 game.

The best way to play at Commerce by far is just fold a little bit until you get a good starting hand, make a raise preflop, and then get your money in on that flop if you're still good. If not, release, and wait for another big hand.

There is always someone willing to call you, and once you double up the blinds don't seem so bad. It won't take long for those stacks to move; in live NL games these days, people gamble like a bunch of nutjobs and are constantly throwing away their stacks. Then, you get guys with big stacks that don't know how to defend them at all, and they make big raises and leave themselves open to getting demolished. You double through again off those guys, and voila, large profit.

Those blinds aren't too bad. Be conservative, and once you double up, become very aggressive, but not too attached to your bad hands and bluffs. Follow that method, and you'll be raking in the chips.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

If you choose to play buy in for the max, and keep adding on if you lose a few chips to get back to the max.

Those blinds are really high for that size buy-in, you won't be able to afford to play real tightly. Not sure what effect it will have on your opponents, depends how they play. It will make the average pot big and all-in will be common, and you will need to go all-in more than a more sensible structure.

al

[Ignatius]

hands that rely on implied odds go down in value. [...] That is small pairs and suited aces are worth less
.
There's a flip side to this: less implied odds wrt. draws also means that quantity beats quality, i.e. is generally better to have more outs vs. top-pair than to have nut-outs. While flush over flush is a rare thing to happen, when the money is deep, a good part of the profit from AXs comes from doubling up against weaker flush draws. On a higher scale with even deeper money, the same applies to set over set (about a 1:20 shot with bottom set on the flop on a full table). Neither plays much of a role with an effective stack of less than 40 BBs, however.
.
This means that ace-baby suited is the type of hand you need to tighten up most, while small pairs and suited connectors are less affected. In fact, you might be able to loosen up on hands like KJs b/c of the possibility to raise or check-raise all-in when you flop 2 overcards along with your flush draw even though none of your outs is to the nuts. The same applies to SCs when you flop a pair along with your str8 or flush draw.
.
Not having to fear a reraise or the negative implied odds of drawing to the 2nd best hand limits the risk of your semi bluffs and allows you to play non-nut combination draws much more agressively.

[crockpot]

1. yes, these stacks are very short. you should loosen up. the primary effect is that implied odds are severely reduced. calling raises with small pocket pairs may no longer be correct, and putting in all your chips with top pair top kicker is a much better play in this game, than if you could buy in for more.

2. no, unless you are a bad player. a good player is always better off buying in for the maximum. think of it this way: you will have more ammunition to outplay the opposition with.

3. ciaffone/reuben's book is not of that much use in this game, actually. that book is designed for deeper money games which are all about implied odds. the strategy for a game where the money is this short is not that far off from how you would play in limit hold em, except that you should re-evaluate pot odds based on bet sizes, and always bet enough to protect your hand against draws.

[Dentist]

So, let me see if I get this right.

Blinds 2 and 5

I'm in mid-position, it's folded to me, I have AK offsuit I make a raise to like 3X the big blind - making it $15 to go.

Button calls, and so does the BB.

Flop comes A 8 5 with 2 clubs (and I don't have any clubs)

BB checks, there's $45 in the pot, I have like $180 left so I just push in right then and there?

Which means I would a) win that relatively small pot
B) get called by a worse A and double up, or C) get called by a set or aces up or an Ace and a nut flush draw that hits and lose all my money

Or let's say I had pocket Queens on the Button, someone up front raises to $20, and I just push in right then and there? or take a flop?

What would you do with a hand like J 10 Suited in mid-position when folded to you? Raise? Fold? Flat-call? Push in?

It seems like there will be a lot of "pushing-in" in this game... maybe i'm not ready for its volatility.