Sands $1000 report (long)

[B K]

I played in the $1000+$60 no limit tourney at the Sands on Wednesday. I've played in $300 buy-ins before, but this was my first large buy-in event. I'm a mid-limit hold 'em player and only started taking tournaments seriously this summer. I've adopted a tournament style that is very tight, and I'm wondering if it's prohibitively tight. In freezeout events that escalate quickly, I don't stand a chance if the cards don't come. I've never been the big stack in a tournament and haven't experienced "running over" those with less chips. I rarely bluff because it seems I'm always playing from a short stack. I'm always hoping that others will bust out and let me advance.

It was thrilling to play in a large event with all the big guns. At my first table assignment I was sitting with Kathy Leibert and Amir Vahedi. Ms. Liebert seemed to play very tight but she wasn't catching cards. Amir came to the table on a short stack and busted fairly early on. Jeff Shulman sat at the table next to me and amassed a huge stack right away. We moved to the same table a couple hours in and he took advantage of his stack size by attacking preflop raisers with reraises, always taking the pot right there. Also at that table were Freddy Deeb, Scotty Nguyen, and three other players whom I knew to be very good from previous experiences.

Here are the hands I played... straight up. Mistakes and all.

We started with $3k in chips and I was blinded down only slightly before calling a button open raise (3x BB) from the BB with 55. The flop came AQ7 and I check-folded.

After a couple limpers, I completed in the SB with 88. I led at a flop and was called only by the button. We both checked the turn and river and my hand was good. This hand put me back to T3000.

At 25/50 blinds, I called a single player's 350 more in the BB with QQ. A king came and I check folded to a big, strong, scary bet.

Same level: UTG limped, SB completed and I'm in the BB again with KTo. I flop the joint and we checked to UTG who bet 50. Folded back to me and I raised to 100 - he folded. I certainly didn't consider my image when making this play - I clearly should have called.

I limped a couple times - once with KQo and once with QTc; both times it was either raised preflop or I missed and folded. Between these hands and the blinds, I was down to T2100 at the first break. We had played 3 levels at 40 min/level, and I voluntarily put money in 6 times. Then I made two huge preflop mistakes in one hand shortly after the break.

There were two limpers to me in the SB with AJs. Blinds were 75/150 and I raised to 600 (mistake one - this is an easy complete). It was folded to one of the limpers who pushed in 425 more. I called (mistake two - easy fold) and he showed aces.

I'm now below T1000, but I didn't feel pressure or play bad - in fact, I didn't play at all! Shortly after this hand the table was broken and I went to the really tough table I described above. I honestly played no more hands until I was down to T450 in the SB (blinds were 200/400). There was a MP open raise and a good player went all in for less than the raise (maybe T1400). I called all in as well, and the opener held AK - the good player and I were both out with our ace-queens. Of 137 players, I was out #72. The Sands paid 18 places.

In general, I watched the best players open with a raise and fold if they were reraised. The standard play with aces was to limp preflop and then make a huge reraise if raised; if not, they'd push in after the flop.

Am I playing too tight? Other than the AJ hand, I feel quite comfortable with my game, but I'm screwed when the cards don't come. I understand that NL is not as mechanical as limit, but I need some guidance on where to go from here as far as mixing it up and bluffing opportunities. Thanks.

[sam h]

BK,

First, as suggestion: Its tough to give advice on specific hands with incomplete information. Let people know where raises are coming from, what the flop actually was, what the stack sizes were, whether you had a read on an opponent's level of aggression, etc.

Anyway, here are a couple of opinions.

In general, if I have QQ in the blind and somebody makes a big (8xBB) raise, I'm coming over the top. Since you didn't include information on the player or where they were seated, its kind of hard to say what to do. But especially in a game where there seemed to be a lot of limp-reraising with big pairs, I want to get the money in or take it down right there with QQ.

KT hand. Without knowing what you had or whether there were draws out there, its impossible to say whether a slowplay would have been best. Most times in this situtation, however, you're not making much more from the player than you did.

AJs in SB hand. I don't think a raise here is always bad, but if you do raise you probably want to raise more. You don't want to see a flop here out of position. Once your opponent pushes in 425 more, you're probably screwed. But folding is only justifiable if you absolutely know he must have aces. You're getting something like 4.5:1 to call. While you're a huge dog to AA (7:1ish), he could have KK, QQ, or just some lower pair and wants to shove it in and see what happens. And against those hands, you're getting much more than the right price. Without a strong read, I'm calling here.

In general, it seems like you need to be a lot more aggressive. You can't just wait for big pairs and eat the blinds round after round. Your stack will dwindle and when you do get a good holding, you won't get any action against the better players, because they'll have taken note of how tight you are. Tournament poker is pretty tough when you don't get any cards. But better to give yourself a shot through raw aggression than just bide your time. This is something I think a lot of players (including me) struggle with. Greg Raymer's (Fossilman) recent trip report from the big Foxwoods 10K tournament is a good read for an example of how a seasoned player tries to work through this kind of situation by picking up blinds and making some well-timed semim-bluff reraises.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

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this was my first large buy-in event. I'm a mid-limit hold 'em player and only started taking tournaments seriously this summer.

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Welcome to the tourney world. It's a lot of fun.

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I've adopted a tournament style that is very tight, and I'm wondering if it's prohibitively tight.

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Could be. Tournaments are the one poker venue I'm aware of where it's possible to be too tight, i.e., so tight you can't play with +EV.

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I rarely bluff because it seems I'm always playing from a short stack.

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That doesn't mean you can't bluff. As long as you don't get too desperately short, you can still steal the blinds. As long as you have 4xBB or more, you can steal. And if the cards don't come, sometimes you should try to even though you don't have much at all.

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At 25/50 blinds, I called a single player's 350 more in the BB with QQ. A king came and I check folded to a big, strong, scary bet.

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I'd tend to reraise here more often than not. If you're too concerned he has you beat already, then fold rather than call for this much. The flop fold is fine.

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Same level: UTG limped, SB completed and I'm in the BB again with KTo. I flop the joint and we checked to UTG who bet 50. Folded back to me and I raised to 100 - he folded. I certainly didn't consider my image when making this play - I clearly should have called.

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Here you see the conflict in yourself. You're concerned about not getting action because of your image, yet you're not taking advantage of that image to selectively steal pots because you're concerned about getting played back at. It doesn't work both ways.

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I limped a couple times - once with KQo and once with QTc; both times it was either raised preflop or I missed and folded.

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Nothing necessarily wrong here, as long as you reasonably thought it was unlikely that anybody would raise behind you preflop.

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I'm now below T1000, ... I honestly played no more hands until I was down to T450 in the SB (blinds were 200/400).

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Here's is your only clearly mistaken play. There is no way I ever get blinded down from T1000 to T450, with blinds this high. I would never post almost half my money in the big blind and then fold, as it appears you did in your second-to-last hand. In fact, when I was UTG the hand before that I probably raise all-in as long as I have some kind of semi-decent hand. Back when you still had T1000, before that big blind of T400 or T300 hit you, you should've picked a hand and raised all-in.

K2o UTG is good enough. As long as there's any chance, even 20%, that they all fold, it's a clear raise. Since the times they don't all fold, you still have some chance of winning. Even if the play is -EV, it's often LESS -EV than posting a big fraction of your stack in the BB.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[M.B.E.]

Greg, good post as usual but I have a quibble with this statement:

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Could be. Tournaments are the one poker venue I'm aware of where it's possible to be too tight, i.e., so tight you can't play with +EV.

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In fact there are lots of types of poker where it's easy to play too tight. For example, try sitting down in the Bellagio 15-30 holdem game and deciding that you'll only play AK, AQ, and big pocket pairs. There's no way you'd have +EV, because the blinds would destroy you, even if your opponents did not adjust for how tight you were playing. (Of course if your opponents did adjust, then you'd get destroyed. If they didn't, you might have an EV of negative $10 an hour.)

A more pronounced example is 7-card stud at the higher limits, where the ante is high relative to bet size.

And of course in any short-handed situation it's common to see people lose money because they're playing too tight.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I was inexact to be sure.

I've never seen a player in a cash game who's so tight he's certain to be a long-term loser. Yet I've seen quite a few people play that tight in tournaments.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[B K]

Thanks very much for the responses. I also posted this report on liveactionpoker and got some great input from Dan Negreanu:

"It's not that you are playing too tight necessarily, but you may just be playing a little weak. You are waiting for:

GOOD CARDS AND GOOD FLOPS

Waiting for this combination is well... like asking for repeated miracles all tournament long, it ain't gonna happen.

The QQ may have been a big mistake. Of course without being there I don't know. Overall, it sounds like you just weren't involved, were very predictable, and your opponents were clearly exploiting your weaknesses.

As a general rule for you personally, you need to limp less and raise more. You are always trying to hit flops, but what you need to do is force your opponent to hit flops rather than you. How? By being the aggressor. By taking the initiative, raising coming in, betting flops, re-raising pre-flop, etc.

From the description I got, it clearly sounds to me like you are hoping to win based on the merit of your cards. While that may keep you around longer, take a look at the winners? What are they doing that you aren't? Figure that out, and at it to your reportoire."

[curmudgeon]

too tight? YES.... especially in the early rounds when the blinds are low. Play much looser early, then tighten up. It will help your game, chip stack, and image.
Have a drink or two......... have some fun! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]