Sometimes You Have to Take a Stand

[soda]

6 Handed Party 10/20

So, this was by far the most interesting hand last night. It was about 3 am and I'd been getting run down constantly. Also, I was waiting for good cards and the button, a very well known maniacal, losing player open raised EVERY SINGLE TIME it was folded to him. He is one of the worst players from a dollar standpoint in my database and I have nearly 1000 hands played with him so far.

So, this time I have Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. He open raises from the button. The SB comes along and I call. The flop comes:

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, I check with the intention of checkraising if the SB folds and just folding if he calls. Button bets, SB folds, I raise, Button calls. This is 99% autocall with any two cards. Turn brings a good card for me:

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet, button calls. I'm not concerned here, he does not have the straight or flush or he would raise. I have a flush draw now and because he is a look up artist, his call means very little. River is:

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet and he called - I'm still unsure as to whether I've won or lost the hand at this point.

How do you rate my play on this hand?

I personally feel I made a nice play, I picked the right time to do it, but I also made at least one inexcusable, basic error - you may find more.

soda

[Nottom]

I don't see much point in the river bet. It seems unlikely that even a maniac is going to call you with a hand that can't beat Q-high. Check and call the bluff that he will inevitably make if you think you have the best hand.

[soda]

I agree with you, the river bet is totally stupid. The only argument for betting the river is that if he folds, I can play off him again without fear that he'll call me down with A, K or Q high. But, I don't give much credence to that argument, I should have check called.

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

soda

[soda]

Board of:

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I held:

Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

for Queen High and my opponent held:

T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

For the winning pair of 8s.

I liked this hand, because most people would not make this play, but I think at this level it is important to push the envelope at times. Although I lost the hand, I'm probably going to profit down the line from plays like this. Players will see me make this play and will find it hard to label me a "good player". In fact, they will, hopefully, misinterpret the situation and label me "overaggressive" or even better, "a complete moron".

There is this guy whom I play against regularly that made me think of this hand. When I first played with him, I immediately labeled him "MORON" in the notes. The more I watch him play, the more I begin to think that he may in fact be the best player at the table, whether or not I am there. On a whim, I checked his earnings in pokertracker and unsurprisingly, he's doing quite well. So, I've changed my notes on him and continue to play against him with due respect. It's scary for me to think that a player exists who plays at a level that I don't even understand yet. I believe too many players discredit others too quickly and that is the point of this post.

Best of Luck,

soda

ps - Feel free to discredit me as a "moron" as quickly as you like.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Ulysses]

Another reason the river bet is bad is that you give him an opportunity to bluff-raise you on the river, a not uncommon move in these games by players like this.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
There is this guy whom I play against regularly that made me think of this hand. When I first played with him, I immediately labeled him "MORON" in the notes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm... I hope this is me!

[ QUOTE ]
The more I watch him play, the more I begin to think that he may in fact be the best player at the table, whether or not I am there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely me!

[ QUOTE ]
It's scary for me to think that a player exists who plays at a level that I don't even understand yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, absolutely, that's me.

[soda]

[ QUOTE ]
Another reason the river bet is bad is that you give him an opportunity to bluff-raise you on the river, a not uncommon move in these games by players like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely agreed on the risk of a raise, but the problem here is not a bluff raise, but a value raise.

Catch my drift?

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

soda

[soda]

Tell you what U,

I'll send you a check for $20 - and when you cash it, you tell me your Party Name.

Probably be the best $20 I ever spent.

soda

[anatta]

Soda-

Do you make this play if you are killing 'em? I am only saying this because the short games are frustrating. I am sure you normally wait for a better spot to make a stand (unless queen high holds up for you more than it does me!!). I do know that in the short games, you run across characters that justify the strangest play, and this was probably one of them. A lot of times, I think its best just keep waiting. Oh well, its good that you are aware and bold enough to try this sort of thing.

[soda]

This was an unusual play against a huge whale in my game. If you re-read the post, he had raised every time it was folded to him on the button (for about two hours). Then he'd auto bet the flop. I knew his play very well at that point, and felt that this was the time to make an unusual play, hopefully pick up a pot, and perhaps send a message.

Again, unusual play for me, but one that I make once in a blue moon, when everything feels right.

It may be helpful to note that against this type of player, the biggest mistake is folding too many hands. I showed inexperience by waiting so long to start playing back at this guy with "mediocre" holdings like Queen high.

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

soda

ps - I just lost 3 big pots on the river (in 5 min.), costing me over $900 and prolonging my Friday evening session indefinitely. Please send your condolences to crymeariver@youbaby.ca