u guys

[Tommy Angelo]

I had only a few hours and there were only a few players so so far so good. I hadn't played for a week and meanwhile I'd drunk often at the 2+2 well of wisdom, and that, as I knew from before, was not necessarily good. Two plus two minus playing equals a weakening of my game. Or maybe it's just the not playing. Either way, I was not surprised by the way I botched my very first hand twice before the turn.

Four-handed $20-40. Queen-ten of hearts I had in the big blind. The first player limped. The button raised. The small blind called. Here's what I knew about these players: everything.

I called. I rate this play as much worse than if I folded with 7-2 offsuit because all my opponents would fold 7-2 offsuit in this spot which means I'd be doing what they do which means I profit nothing. But they would all call with the queen-ten suited. I need to make this fold to make rent. But I called, because so many of u guys play just like they do. Sometimes my malleable outputs are easily though briefly affected by recent inputs, be they musical styles, writing styles, poker-playing styles.

The flop came K-10-x rainbow. The small blind checked. I checked. I rate this play as being worse than if I had checked with no pair and no draw because even .... etc.



Tommy

[Coilean]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but how does folding the QTs preflop become a good play simply because almost everyone else calls with it? You should make a play because it wins money, an event which is pretty strongly correlated to how often other people make the same play (i.e. raising preflop with pocket aces), unless you're lucky enough to be the only player with a clue in the game. I agree that most of your edge comes largely from playing differently (better) than your opponents, but that doesn't mean they can't still be right a lot of the time too. Different is not always, or necessarily, better; the counterflow plays that are correct are not all that frequent, or that obvious.

[mikelow]

Also, why not bet the flop?

[David Steele]

Other good players on 2+2:
Position
Hand Stregth.
Number of Players entered.
Characteristics of Raiser.
Your own current image.
The cost to call.
Type of game, loose/tight/passive/agressive
Whether you are varying your play
etc etc etc

Tommy:
Position

We get the message, you like to be in late position butI doubt we are all going to toss good hands for that one factor.

Hope you make your rent.

D.

[Mike Gallo]

Tommy,

I want to understand the "Bizarro" world that you live in.

Whatever you do different from your opponent benefits you. Since they would call with that hand you need to fold it. That way you maintain your overlay.

You have to stop letting peer pressure affect your game. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[mike l.]

i checked in thinking okay this is cool im eating my din so ill just see what's going on over at 2+2. and then i see a tommy post and im like "sweet good reads!" and then i read coilean's post. oh s+it now i have to post..ok.. log on.. oh [censored] fingers sticky w/ food../ lesse here. ok here i am

it's a hugely powerful fold mentally if you are a spazz. im not saying tommy is a spazz, although he's hinted to me that he's spazzicapable. now coilean (and mason and dynasty and and and) you are just as non-spazz as they come at the table from what ive read. maybe youre a spazz at love or sex or god or something else, but you dont spazz at poker. i, as ive proven repeatedly, spazz hardcore.

while this first hand in QTs shorthanded, bb fold is fiscally essential for tommy, it is pure zen for me. i learned it from the guy, but it holds even more importance and relevance for me. when i start off a session focused on being WEAK and TIGHT, almost disturbingly so, i just end up kicking the holy living sh+t out of them the rest of the session way more often than not.

and if it's QJs and i do the same thing? oh my goodness.. the implications are so high, i think ive played that nitty maybe once or twice before max. and then instead of looking at the flop just stare at the players faces while they do their thing. even sub-consciously theyre sitting their thinking wtf is this, first this kid dumps his bb and now he's staring at me, wtf!

this making sense yet coilean?

[andyfox]

What are you eating, Mike?

[mike l.]

"Also, why not bet the flop?"

he's out of his element that's why.

i was thinking about the flop and i was thinking wow, this is interesting him sitting there with that junk and that flop, so lost, so lost... and i was thinking here'd be a good chance for him to do another thing he almost never does and checkraise the flop. then i was thinking, no wait the best play is to realise the error of his ways, realise the dark alley he's traversing and just check-muck this turd and run for the door. yes, that's the play.

[mike l.]

brownies but there's this funny green stuff in em..

[mike l.]

"Tommy:
Position"

seats. dont forget seat-changing. he does that a lot.

seriously, i hope you all dismiss what he's saying here. i hope sklansky comes in and calls it silly. ive met this guy a few times and he's the real thing. he would kick the living hell out of any of you all long term long.

closing hint: pragmatism DOES make for winning poker!