KK vs. a big stack

incognito · #1 10-10-2003, 10:47 PM

Online tournament, blinds are at 30/60, I have about 8000 in chips, putting me in 10th place, with two other big stacks at the table. The top 10 spots pay, but that's a way off.

I pick up KK UTG and raise the pot, making it 210 to go. It's folded around to the button who reraises the pot, making it 420 more to me. First decision point here.

I reraise the pot, button reraises all in. He's got me covered. Second decision point here. Who folds, who calls for all their chips?

oneeye13 · #2 10-11-2003, 01:12 AM

what does he play?

NotMitch · #3 10-11-2003, 01:28 AM

Unless I'm almost certain he has AA I push in.

McMelchior · #4 10-11-2003, 03:41 AM

As said you need a read on the player - is he overly aggressive, tight or what?

In doubt I'd fold in a heart-beat - when you have a decent chip-position, then why risk it so far from the money by tangling with one of the stacks that are able to bust you? Even if the player doesn't hold AA, (or AK, Ax, or KK), you're only sure to be ahead before the flop ... well, at least that's my two cents ...

best,

McMelchior (Johan)

sdplayerb · #5 10-11-2003, 05:00 AM

It is tough, but I throw it away. He won't want to risk all of his chips with QQ or AK, he must have AA.
What did you re-reraise to, around 2K?
You still have 6000 in chips or so, so are in great shape.
I'd say there is less than a 50% chance you are ahead..live to fight another day.

chesspain · #6 10-11-2003, 07:56 AM

Your reraise to his raise may have smelled to him like big slick, or even jacks or queens, given your reluctance to push all-in. Is in inconceivable that you might have trapped him into pushing all-in with a weaker hand than kings?

Consequently, I'ld be curious about the payout schedule. Ultimately, you need to ask yourself if you are happy with 8-10th, or do you want to make a stab for a top 3 spot?

chesspain · #7 10-11-2003, 01:51 PM

The more I thought about this, the more I wondered how you could even consider mucking here, or why you didn't just reraise all-in immediately.

You have the second best hand possible, and you are a HUGE favorite over every hand but AA. If you are not willing to reraise someone all-in EVERY SINGLE TIME you have KK, then you probably should not play NL tournies!

In the unfortunate event that you run up against AA and lose, then you take it on the chin and say "good hand." Don't whine like Varkyoni did in the WSOP this year when his kings lost to Scotty N's aces, and he muttered to his "coach" in his wussie, nasal voice "I knew he had aces, I knew he had aces..."

Al_Capone_Junior · #8 10-11-2003, 04:38 PM

I would have just called the big stack's initial reraise and seen the flop. You don't stand to gain that much by taking on a big stack when you've got so many chips, yet the money is so far off. See the flop, then decide if you want to commit more chips. You may flop the set and break him, or you may flop an ace and get away from the hand pretty cheaply. Either of these is preferable to being shown AA before the flop.

al

chesspain · #9 10-11-2003, 05:05 PM

Do you want to give someone with big slick a chance to catch the ace on the flop?

And what happens if a J or Q hit on the flop, and opponent raises all-in...then hero has to think "Is opponent betting top pair, or trips on the possible pair he raised me with preflop?

That's why I think reraising all-in with kings PF is the way to go. Give your opponent the chance to make the wrong call after you make your move.

Guy McSucker · #10 10-11-2003, 06:53 PM

Open raise, yes. Reraise, yes. Both of these are obvious: you must raise KK, and his reraise could be AK, TT-AA, or even less in many player's playbooks, so you should certainly put in the third raise.

Calling the fourth raise is a tough one. It comes up very rarely in tournaments - the stacks are seldom so big compared to the blinds - so it's very hard to know the player. In a cash game, the fourth pot sized raise would be aces 99% of the time. He knows you have a big hand, so he must have something pretty good under there. Even if we say it must be QQ-AA, then it's only 7-6 against his being in front. I think QQ is a little less likely than AA, though.

I think you fold. You've only put in about 25% of your stack and are still enormously well placed for the tournament.

I must also say I completely disagree with another poster's idea of moving all-in for the third raise. That would be overbetting the pot by a huge factor, which is crazy at this stage. Also, someone remarked that if you would consider folding KK preflop you shouldn't play NL because it is the second best hand; I would say the fact that it is the second best hand should mean that if you would never consider folding it, you shouldn't play NL.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Guy.