Do I go all-in too often? NLHE tourney hand

Tyler Durden · #1 10-02-2003, 01:09 PM

$20 tourney on Stars. 403 entrants, down to 150. Average stack is T4000. I have T3100.
Blinds 75/150.

UTG limps. I limp next with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Guy after me limps. Button limps, SB folds, BB checks. 5 way flop.

J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. First two check to me. I bet T750 into a pot of T825. Only the button calls.

Turn is 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I think I have the better hand so I decide to bet. The pot is T2300. I have T2200 left. I move in.

My opponent started the hand with more than T9000.

Comments on all streets appreciated. thanks much.

Kurn, son of Mogh · #2 10-02-2003, 03:04 PM

Top pair weak kicker. Pot-size bet on the flop and you get called. Ugh. Does he have any reason to think you're betting without a pair? Do you believe he'd call on the flop with overcards? You have no draw, and two of your outs to hit your kicker are tainted.

If you're going to bet, it has to be your whole stack. I think you're out-kicked.

J.R. · #3 10-02-2003, 05:00 PM

I would fold preflop and either check the flop or bet less (probably check the flop). This is why I fold preflop- you are out of position with one pair mediocre kicker without a clue whether you are ahead or behind and have already put almost 1/3rd of your stack in the pot.

You had 15 big bets, so you had time to wait and yet could put pressure on people with a decent-sized pre-flop raise. Given your present predicament, I don't see a better hand folding, but can't see you betting any less than you did- I go in here and hope he has hearts.

Tyler Durden · #4 10-02-2003, 05:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I go in here and hope he has hearts

[/ QUOTE ]

He did have hearts. Unfortunately he turned a pair also with the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. The river was another 9 and I was history.

I was a 68% favorite on the turn.

Bozeman · #5 10-02-2003, 06:14 PM

Based on rough memory of the type of hands you post here, my guess is yes to the subject question.

Scooterdoo · #6 10-02-2003, 06:37 PM

If you're going to limp with that hand you need to pull a flush, flush draw, set or two pair or else you need to play it much less aggressively and be ready to fold on a big bet. You never gave the button a chance to show you if he has anything good. I would have checked to him on the turn to see what he would do. Even if he checked and a rag came up on the river I would only make a modest bet since he could easily have you beat with the same pair and a better kicker -- why else is he still there? One big problem with your all-in bet on the turn is that he had a lot of chips so could (assuming he's an aggressive player) take the chance to call you with a flush draw and two overcards.

Don't like your play at all. Save your all-in bets when a) you're pretty sure you have the best hand or b) you're reasonably sure it will get everyone out. In this case you had no read on him at all so you had no way of knowing what he had. Always ask yourself... why is your opponent still in the pot and what hands would he likely call/fold. You must put him on a hand. I don't think you did that in this case.

Tyler Durden · #7 10-13-2003, 05:25 PM

I often email Dan for help with my NL play. I e-mailed him about this hand and this is what he had to say:

"Man, I love the way you played it. Perfect. Not much you can do about the river card, but take some solace in the fact that you played it well."

Then I e-mailed him back telling him that I was surprised at his answer and told him about the feedback I received here. He says that my play was perfect if I felt I had the best hand after the flop, which I did. He also liked my flop bet, calling it "assertive and sizeable."

I'm not trying to be an ass here, just wanted to let people know what he thought of the hand.

Daniel Negreanu · #8 10-13-2003, 06:12 PM

"You never gave the button a chance to show you if he has anything good."

Yes he did. He made an assertive bet on the flop, and the button didn't raise him. Making it slightly less likely that he has a better Jack or a set and more likely that he has a draw.

"I would have checked to him on the turn to see what he would do."

Based on his read of the situation this would have been a terrible error. With a sizeable pot already, giving away a free card here may have turned out to be a disaster.

"Even if he checked and a rag came up on the river I would only make a modest bet since he could easily have you beat with the same pair and a better kicker -- why else is he still there?"

Hmmm... at this point by the river, had you checked the turn and your opponent checked behind you, I don't see much value in a modest bet? If he was on a draw he won't call you, but if he has you beat he will ALWAYS call you... what would you be hoping he had?

"One big problem with your all-in bet on the turn is that he had a lot of chips so could (assuming he's an aggressive player) take the chance to call you with a flush draw and two overcards.

I don't understand? Why is this a "big problem?" On the turn, he would be a good sized favorite against that hand too.

"Don't like your play at all. Save your all-in bets when a) you're pretty sure you have the best hand or b) you're reasonably sure it will get everyone out."

He was pretty sure he had the best hand. He said that in his post quite clearly.

"In this case you had no read on him at all so you had no way of knowing what he had. Always ask yourself... why is your opponent still in the pot and what hands would he likely call/fold. You must put him on a hand. I don't think you did that in this case."

Hmmm.... maybe not, but he did feel as though he had the best hand, implying that he put his opponent on a draw I think.

Daniel Negreanu · #9 10-13-2003, 06:16 PM

"I would fold preflop and either check the flop or bet less (probably check the flop)."

That's certainly an option, but with a limper already entering the pot there is a good chance this will be a multi-way pot. I kinda like playing the J-10 of clubs in a multi-way pot, don't you?

"This is why I fold preflop- you are out of position with one pair mediocre kicker without a clue whether you are ahead or behind and have already put almost 1/3rd of your stack in the pot."

You say this is why you'd fold PRE flop? That must be a typo I imagine.

Vehn · #10 10-13-2003, 06:18 PM

I would probably play it the same way post flop, but to be honest I would fold this preflop just about all the time here in this type of tournament/blind structure/etc. I really despise these types of hands here.