AJo UTG - When Do I Slow Down?

JoeU · #1 09-25-2003, 08:43 PM

3-6 at the Taj. Fairly loose game. Table is rather friendly. Of all the tables I played at during my trip, this was probably the best field I played against.

I am UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I raise. I like to do this with a hand like this in this position because people will occasionally "read a book" and think AA, KK or something extremely strong. I also like being the aggressor from this spot because it makes everyone else call 2 cold. All fold to the button who calls, as does the SB and BB. 4 to the flop for a total if 4BB.

Flop: T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet, all call. 4 to the turn for 6BB

Turn: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])

Checked to me, I bet, button folds, SB thinks for a while, and reluctantly calls. BB folds. I read SB for a decent A, no pair at this point.

River: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img](3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])

SB checks, I bet again. He thinks and calls. What does he have?

I'll post results later.

Joe

GuyOnTilt · #2 09-25-2003, 08:58 PM

Preflop: Fold. Limping is your 2nd option. Raising is the worst.

Flop: Betting into 3 opponents in this spot is bad. Against one or two it's not horrible, but I think your bet here is a mistake.

Turn: Definitely don't bet after you got called by all 3 opponents on the flop.

River: You're not making a pair fold if he called the turn. Don't bet. There's no value to betting here.

IMO, you misplayed every street.

JTG51 · #3 09-25-2003, 09:07 PM

I agree with you about the turn and river and somewhat disagree about the flop. I really, really disagree with your preflop comments though.

I'm not sure where the idea comes from that AJo should be folded UTG in loose games, but it's basically throwing away money. In games where some opponents will call 2 cold preflop with any Ace then pay off with any pair after the flop, folding AJ is almost criminal. Raising AJo UTG is my default play in typical low limit games.

GuyOnTilt · #4 09-25-2003, 09:22 PM

Your right about the preflop action. I did not read the post thoroughly and didn't see his comment about the game being super loose/passive. You're right that mucking AJo UTG is wrong at a table like that. In my normal game, I muck it. I'd raise it in a super loose-passive game as well.

What is it exactly you disagree about my comments concerning the flop play?

JTG51 · #5 09-25-2003, 09:29 PM

What is it exactly you disagree about my comments concerning the flop play?

I'll start by admitting that I probably bet the flop too often after raising preflop, but I think his flop bet is OK. I think 2 overcards, a gutshot, and the momentum of being the preflop raiser is enough to bet the flop with 3 opponents.

I'd be very happy to hear arguments to the contrary, since I think this is sometimes a hole in my play.

GuyOnTilt · #6 09-25-2003, 09:34 PM

It must be Thursday and I must be really tired. I didn't even see the gutshot on the flop. I need to take a break and get some sleep. I would bet with my gutshot and 2 overcards as well after 2 checks to me.

Without the gutshot though, I don't think two overcards and his momentum are enough to bet into a field of 3 opponents on the flop. Especially at a table that he calls loose/passive, meaning that opponents could and will check-call top pair all the way against a preflop raiser.

34TheTruth34 · #7 09-25-2003, 09:41 PM

I agree with guyontilt, I don't like the way you played this hand on almost every street.

Preflop, I don't agree that you should fold, but I say just limp. I just feel like when you raise here, the only people who are folding are the ones you want in the pot. Hands like A-rag, QJ, JT, J9 probably aren't calling two cold. AK and AQ are still playing though and maybe even reraising, forcing you to put in more bets while dominated.

I don't mind the the flop bet, but once you bet the flop, and get called in three places, you should probably give it up. On the river, check behind. He won't fold any pair and your ace high is not much, but it is something to showdown in case he has a busted draw like K9 or Q9.

So that was the long version. The short version is slow down when you get called on the flop by the whole table with nothing but an overcard and a gutshot.

Brian · #8 09-25-2003, 09:42 PM

Here we go again, another discussion about AJo and what to do with it in EP! Well, I've seen the arguments on here multiple times, and I raise with it every time. Before I give my reasons, let me first say that I believe it is wrong to fold. AJ is simply too strong of a hand to go around folding all of the time. That being said, do you limp with it or raise? I'll go ahead and get the point-counterpoint obvious stuff out of the way.

Point: I raise AJo to thin the field.
Counterpoint: You will thin the field of the hands you dominate, and you won't get rid of any of the hands that dominate you (AK, AQ, etc.)

That counterpoint is hard to argue with. However, it is not really an argument for limping with it instead of raising. IF you think that playing AJo is correct, then you must accept that sometimes you WILL run into AQ or AK. Whether you limp with it or raise with it, you will still run into that AQ/AK, and when you flop an Ace you will still be in trouble. If you knew for a fact that your opponents had AQ or AK beforehand, then obviously you would fold AJo. But, you do not, and even when they do, you are still in trouble whether you limp OR raise.

Therefore, I think that it is correct to raise with AJo to avoid letting suited connectors and pocket pairs see a Flop cheaply. There are other benefits to raising AJo as well. If you have only 1 or 2 opponents and the Flop misses both of them as well as you, a bet on the Flop will often allow you to steal.

That's my take on it. Not so long ago, I was folding it. Then, I was limping with it. And now, I am raising it, and I am happiest with the latter.

-Brian

[EDIT]: As a sidenote, I would have played the hand the same way as you did up until the Turn, at which point you have to give up.

JoeU · #9 09-25-2003, 09:47 PM

Since I've started a great discussion, I ask this question: what do you put the BB on? Is he on a draw? is he open ended?, what does he think I have? Is it reasonable to believe that my ace will be good if I spike it in the river? If you read him for a draw, you can't be happy about spiking the J. Wouldn't you believe the 9 is good as well. If he is open ended, wouldn't your A high be good under almost any scenario?

Ok, thats more than one question. Sometimes I let my mind wander. But I'm still not convinced my turn bet is bad, and my river bet off of my read isn't bad either.

Convince me.

Joe

JTG51 · #10 09-25-2003, 09:52 PM

what do you put the BB on?

Most likely a crappy pair that he decided to show down when he called your turn bet.

what does he think I have?

He most likely isn't thinking about that.

If he is open ended, wouldn't your A high be good under almost any scenario?

Yes, that's why checking behind on the river is attractive. You beat almost all no pair hands already, so there's no reason to bet in an attempt to make them fold.