6 to the flop for 4 bets each. i have KK. will it hold up?

[ninja please]

party 1/2. i've been sitting at this table all night, but the main opponents are new to me.

i'm dealt Ks Kc.

5 limpers to me, i raise. SB folds, BB calls. first 4 limpers call. 5th (CO -1) limp 3-bets. i'm thinking my kings have very little chance against a field of 6 other people. i'm sure if i just call, they all call behind. so i raise in the hopes that having to call 2 more cold will drive out some of the competition.

BB folds, all others call. 6 to the flop for 26.5 SB. i'm hoping for a miracle K on the flop, because without a set i am very concerned about my chances against such a large field. anyone know how KK does against a random 5 hands?

flop: J72 rainbow
no K, but this is about as good as i could have hoped for without making a set.
checked to CO-1 (PF 3 better), who bets. i raise. 2 fold, 2 call, and CO-1 only calls.

turn: T (two diamonds now)
checked to CO -1, who bets again. should i be slowing down here fearing AA or JJ? i don't, and instead raise again. 1 call, 1 fold, and CO-1 calls.

river: 2h

i was behind a set anyhow, so this can only help me out against a possible JT. checked to me, i bet. both fold. i definitely didn't expect this, both having come so far with such a big pot with so few draws they could have been chasing. i almost wish i'd checked behind so i could know what they had, but i was definitely expecting at least one caller. i mean, the third player has called 2 cold on both streets up to the river. oh well, i'd rather complain about that than about losing a 25BB pot.

i think i played this pretty well. anyone think i was over aggressive? and what do you folks put the 2 opponents who called to the river on for hands? i feel like CO -1 was probably over playing somethign like AKs, though he did limp PF. i can't put the other player on anything, and it's quite possible this was just your average party clueless player. but i'm still curious.

[CMangano]

I am guessing CO had AQd or AKd and decided to semi-bluff the turn when he picked up his draw. I think you played it about as well as it could be played. I think if CO 3 bets the turn you can slow down for sure, but until then you have to believe you are ahead.

[sam h]

You played it great.

KK and AA will hold up against big fields without making a set more than you think. More importantly, they don't have to hold up that often to make a profit anyway. That 25BB pot you dragged will make up for a lot of times getting sucked out on.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
...anyone know how KK does against a random 5 hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://gocee.com/poker/HE_Val_Sort.htm

Everything about the way you played this hand was perfect.

However, everything you thought about this hand was atrocious starting with your irrational fear that KK can't win unimproved to your comment that you wished you had checked the river to see your opponent's hands.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I am guessing CO had AQd or AKd and decided to semi-bluff the turn when he picked up his draw

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not hand reading. This is yet another example of a poster putting opponent's only on hands which either (1) have them beat or (2) have them drawing extremely live.

It seems very unlikely that the CO would choose not to raise pre-flop the first time around with either AKs or AQs but would 3-bet with it. I could see an attempted limp-reraise from early position but not from the cutoff.

This type of 3-bet is more often a pot building raise with a smaller pocket pair or sutied connectors. It is possible your opponent had diamonds but Axs or 87s seems much more likely than the big suited Aces. The Ten on the turn may also have hit him with a hand like T9s which flopped a gut-shot. You've got to consider all those possibilities and mroe rather than just putting your opponent on the nut draw.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
so i raise in the hopes that having to call 2 more cold will drive out some of the competition.


[/ QUOTE ]

You should be raising for value that you have the 2nd best hand you could be dealt.

[ QUOTE ]
anyone think i was over aggressive?

[/ QUOTE ]

Other than you, no. I think your play was excellent.

[ QUOTE ]
anyone know how KK does against a random 5 hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can experiment with your own sim at Two Dimes

Peace,
33

[ninja please]

glad to hear my play was correct on this hand. i'm still a little curious as to whether everyone would be as comfortable as they say holding KK and seeing a flop against 5 other people instead of 2 or 3. in my mind, with this number of opponents, there are a lot fewer flops i'm comfortable seeing. i'm getting the sense from the responses that people would like to see as many callers as possible with their pocket kings. if this is the case, i was definitely off base. could someone give me a little reasoning behind this, especially with regard to play after seeing a flop a lot less favorable than the one in my post. what about a flop with an A? or a 2 or even 3 flush board. or 89T with a 2 flush?

is it just a matter of getting away from these flops much more easily? i feel like i would have trouble letting go of KK against aggression on flops like this because of how hard people will play their draws, but if i don't let go, i feel with all these opponents and a board with more options, someone will probably hit. where and when do i slow down if the board cards are not cooperating like they did in my hand?

[ QUOTE ]
However, everything you thought about this hand was atrocious starting with your irrational fear that KK can't win unimproved to your comment that you wished you had checked the river to see your opponent's hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

in my defense, i didn't let the concerns effect my play, i just made a note of them to post here, in hopes that someone would, as you did, let me know they were baseless. also, when i said i "almost wish" i'd checked behind, i just meant about this one hand in this one instance, because both opponents played in a way that kept me from putting them on any sort of hand. i would never actually check in this position, here or in the future.

thanks to all for the responses.

[ElSapo]

i'm still a little curious as to whether everyone would be as comfortable as they say holding KK and seeing a flop against 5 other people instead of 2 or 3.

You have the second best starting hand in hold'em. If all nine came in on a capped flop, I think you'd make a lot of money in the long run. Yeah, you may lose some/many/most of the hands. But those times when your kings are good are going to far and away make up for those times when someone else takes it.

That said, I understand why you want to play them against fewer opponents. Your hand does have a better chance of standing up. Just know that in the long run, those kings are going to win a lot of pots and the more money you get in up front, against more opponents, the better you'll be in the long run.

I liked the way you played the hand.

[Dynasty]

KK will win more pots when it's up against fewer opponents. But, it will win more money when it's up against more opponents.

[ninja please]

thanks for the reply elsapo. i think i understand the idea of the money made with the kings theoretically making up for, by far, the money lost. but my problem is that i feel like i would have a hard time knowing when to let go of the kings when they are beat, and therefore end up putting a lot of money in to the pot the times when the kings don't hold up.

i feel more confident being able to read when i am beat against 2 or 3 than against 6 or 8. with that many people, pretty much all draws will be getting odds, regardless of any pressure from me (or anyone). do i just hang on and hope no-one hits? at what point in the hand, or to what amount of aggression can i fold KK on a board where it is not obviously beat, but probably is? and can i play it as aggressively as i need to on boards that are fairly coordinated?