Define getting outplayed (long)

[TwoOuter]

This may be pointless and irrelevant, but here goes anyway:

Last week I got really lucky in a 6-12 game and took my winnings over to the 15-30 table to join two friends, one a prop, in a game that was fading in the early morning hours.

Except for one happy dude (HD), the game was pretty tight, but everyone seemed to be in decent spirits, and because everyone seemed to know each other, there was a lot of good-natured trash-talking going on. Then this hand comes up:

HD calls UTG+1. I raise 2 off the button with AhKc. The button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: As Kd 9d

HD bets. I raise. Button calls. BB folds. HD calls.

Turn: 8h

HD checks. I bet. Button calls. HD folds.

River: 3c

I bet, Button raises, I consider re-raising but just call. Button turns over pocket nines for the flopped set.

As the Button drags the pot, his buddy in the next seat says, "You didn't have to outplay him so bad right after he sat down- you might scare him off." Button just kind of smiles and I jokingly call for more chips.

From several accounts, the guy who made the comment is a very tough, experienced, long-term winning player. As I was driving home that night, replaying that hand in my mind as I tried to see the road through my tears, I started wondering about the meaning of getting outplayed.

1. Did I get outplayed on this hand?

2. Does winning poker strategy incorporate trying to outplay your opponents, and not get outplayed yourself?

3. I think I'm unclear on the concept of getting outplayed. Any examples from anyone's own experience?

Here's a joke I heard at the table that night:

A blonde girl rushes through the front door as she returns home from school.

"Mommy, Mommy," she says excitedly. "Today in English the teacher asked us to say the alphabet. No one else got past K, but I made it all the way to R. Is it because I'm blonde, Mommy?"

"It sure is, honey," the mother replies.

"And then in Math, the teacher asked us to count to 100. Nobody could count higher than 63, but I counted up to 79! Do you think it's because I'm blonde?"

"Why, I think so, sweetie," the mother said.

"Oh, Mommy, then in gym, when we were changing clothes in the locker room, I saw that the other girls had really small chests, but that mine was really, really big. Is that because I'm blonde, Mommy?"

"No dear, that's because you're 26," the mother replied.

[sam h]

I don't think you got outplayed on this hand. In fact, I you played it fine and the button played it pretty poorly.

As far as the button's play, he did nothing to limit the field or make draws pay on any street. He also basically extracted the minimum out of you, given your holding.

In a general sense, people are always "outplaying" each other in poker - extracting or saving a bet here and there, etc. This by definition is what winning poker strategy implies. But usually when people actually refer to somebody outplaying somebody else, they refer to getting them to fold a better hand or getting them to bombard the pot with chips when drawing slim or dead. In neither of these senses did your opponent outplay you here.

[elindauer]

I define being outplayed as winning/saving bets that your opponent would have lost had the cards been reversed. The extreme example of this is when you win a pot that your opponent would have lost. In this sense, winning poker players are the ones who are able to outplay their opponents more often than they get outplayed themselves.

FWIW, I don't think you were outplayed this hand. You were dealt a terrific second best hand, and when you just call his raise on the river, I seems unlikely that his slowplay caused you to lose more than he would have. In fact, it's possible he was outplayed himself... we'd have to know how he would have handled your cards against you to know for sure. Unless he goes into check-call mode holding top 2 pair after being 3-bet on the flop, you probably win more with the cards reversed.

[Tommy Angelo]

The word "outplayed" is defined precisely so that everyone can do it to everyone else. It is one of many meaningless poker terms.

[Philuva]

His play was awful so I am not sure how he outplayed you. With that board and HD (who appears to be loose passive) still in the hand, he should have put more raises in on the flop and or turn. There are a lot of cards yet to come that could kill his action before the river, so waiting until the river to raise is poor IMO. He shouldn't fear being behind a bigger set nor losing you if you have an underpair, b/c you raised a loose player from LP pre-flop, you could have a wide variety of hands, with the most likely hand you are holding being AK or another big A.

[TwoOuter]

Thanks everyone for the clarification. Maybe it's like what someone said about (I think) Bum Phillips: "He can take his'n and beat your'n, and your'n and beat his'n." Or something to that effect.

Perhaps the "outplay" comment stemmed from the tendency of almost no one at the table except HD to call a raise after the flop. If anyone raised the turn, no river card was seen. So if the Button (correctly) put me on a very large range of hands that I'd raise pre-flop (and on the flop) after HD called (and bet), then maybe he "outplayed" me by not raising me out of the pot if I held AQ, AJ, AT, or even possibly QQ, JJ,TT. I don't really know. But in general, I agree with the comments about the Button not playing the hand very well, let alone outplaying anyone.

[JasonM]

I think of being outplayed is when someone gets you to laydown a better hand than what they have, based on the way they played the hand.

[Philuva]

In my game when you talk about being outplayed, it usually means you outflopped them with an inferior starting hand. So maybe the other guys were joking when they made the comment.