Does this look like collusion ?

[Tosh]

This actually happened a month ago but I was reviewing some hand histories yesterday of the table and looking back it really does look like collusion.

The game is $8/$16 online and I have so far played for 2 rotations and seen no flops. 2 guys (UTG+1 & BB) have capped every pot pre flop, on the flop and beyond if others are still in. Then they've often showed a pair of 3's or something stupid.

In this hand I get A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in LP. UTG+1 raises, one cold caller, I reraise, folded to BB who caps. All call.

Flop is 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Bet, raise, cold call, I reraise, cap, call, call, call.

Turn is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Bet, raise, fold, I reraise which puts me all in (annoying to run out of money here but it means the rest of the hand looks interesting). It gets capped and called.

River is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Check call....

UTG+1 shows down K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to take the side pot and BB mucks. Never found out what he had.

These sort of hands were not uncommon at this table, these 2 would take pot after pot and occasionally lose a big pot but just as often they'd get a hand and be paid off very well. I left soon after just thinking they were nutters or drunks, but looking back I would be amazed if they weren't acting together.

This seems to be a big problem with online play, players could easily be working together and how can you prove it ? Just wondering what I should do with a situation like this. The poker site never cares about it enough to reply to my e-mails and I can't just move to another table because theres only ever one full table for each limit.

Or maybe this isn't obvious collusion ?

[Roy Hobbs]

Check the hand history. You should be able to tell what the other player had. If you can't check this, you are playing at the wrong poker site (Pacific Poker, for example)

RH

[elysium]

hi tosh
wherever there is money, you will also find the fanciest t1 or t3, whatever they are these days, trying to grab it. unless you are armed with weapons of mass destruction, there is nothing that you can do to stop the theft. the crooks are everywhere. if you suspect cheating, do not attempt to report it because more likely than not, you will be reporting it to the crooks themselves. do tell your fellow 2+2 ers and all, but generally you will have to just beware that cheating in unregulated card games is rampant. even in regulated games, about half the dealers know how to deploy card mechanics. whether they do or not is pretty much at the descretion of the particular card room, but many dealers come from lines of work or recreation where card tricks are legally deployed; clowns, magicians, and just hobbyists; so, the b and m rooms are really on par with the internet games.

and no, this topic is not discussed. that's unfortunate because cheating is very wide spread. sooner or later the pit boss will let you know that random flow of cards from the deck is a great fantasy.

if you are a family member of a card room owner, or good friend, you should make out alright. home games have their problems as well, but usually they're on the up and up. but you will not be invited to these games if you run over the table, so don't be too fast to spend the money.

when i saw what was going on, i decided to write more about playing poker than actually playing it. yes, i'm a 100 percenter at the lower limits, but whew.....the pit bosses and managers are going to want their cut, and if you don't pay, well, the cards will go very cold. there is a book out though called 'zen art of poker' or something like that. they have a very curious little blub of one sentence or so that makes the book interesting reading. you should check it out.

there are many good things about 2+2 and the best thing about it is that until we do find a card room that doesn't use mechanics, we can sharpen our skills in a zero corruption environment. and that's a lot to be thankful for.

[Mike Gallo]

Elysium,

I will never play online again.

Thanks [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

~MG~

[Paluka]

How could they be colluding by capping every preflop and putting in tons of bets postflop? Were the other players really dumb enough to put in all those bets preflop and then fold their marginal hands after the flop to the guys who bet and raised every street?

[hockey1]

Speaking as both a (novice) poker player and a (not so novice) lawyer, I encourage you to report this and any other suspected collusion or cheating. I'd expect on-line poker sites to take such complaints seriously because (1) they've got an incredibly good thing going that they wouldn't want to jeopardize, (2) they're likely to be subject to heightened scrutiny because they're on-line, and (3) every hand is recorded. If they don't take action to investigate complaints, followed by corrective action as necessary, they're basically asking for a lawsuit.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
2 guys (UTG+1 & BB) have capped every pot pre flop, on the flop and beyond if others are still in. Then they've often showed a pair of 3's or something stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is absolutely NOT collusion. Or, it is at least not collusion which costs their opponents money. They are playing every hand they get exactly the same way no matter how strong or how weak it is.

In order for this to be dangerous collusion, one player must be intentionally playing certain weak hands aggressively in order to benefit his partner's strong or vulnerable hand. They are not doing that. They are simply betting and raising at every opportunity regardless of their holdings or other players' actions. There's nothing wrong with that.

These are dream opponents. Jump into their game every chance you get.

[Rushmore]

The one hand you cite is not "obvious collusion." It might be "absurd play," but that's not against the rules.

P.S. Every single time I have emailed a collusion or other angle concern to Pokerstars, I have received a detailed and explicit response and outcome. No punches pulled, no unnecessary diplomacy. It's fairly impressive, really. So I guess this didn't happen at Stars, right?

[Slowplay]

hey there t...


unfortunately, it does happen and it does happen often and indeed this appears to be to be precisely that...maniac raising when one of them has top pair/medium kicker is a clear case of collusion...in fact i have seen it in action at my coffee shop/internet cafe, where two kids actually sit down together, login to two computers next to each other, and hammer away at unsuspecting players...

[Tosh]

This was with William Hill.

As I say my initial conclusion at the time was they were both either messing around or drunk. And that may well have been the case. This hand doesn't fully illustrate what I mean but I only have the hand histories that I kept. The capping every street doesn't make me suspicious, what does is the capping every street till everyone is out then checking-calling or check folding that happened in some others.

Maybe they were colluding (although I have to say if they were they weren't very good at it) and maybe they weren't. As someone said colluding would more likely be someone playing a bad hand and raising with it to make sure the other guy gets paid off.