Diary of an online poker player #11

[GrinningBuddha]

Day 45 – Paradise lost

I’m all for playing good poker against good players and I hate suckouts as much as the next guy, but this is ridiculous. When the .50/1.00 games play like 20-40 games, you know it’s time to move on. Bizarre.

I’m looking at the .50/1.00 game lists for Paradise and Party right now. Of the 20+ games going on Party right now, about half of them have an average pot of over $10. Of the 10 games on Paradise, not one passes that mark. I’m seeing flop percentages in the low 30s for microlimit games! Blech.

It got so bad at one point that I decided I’d do better in a SnG, so I entered a $10+1 and took home 3rd place, for a net $9 win. Not too bad, I just wish I could have gotten a couple of hands towards the end. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I’ve decided to take my money (+$118 including the $50 deposit bonus) and move on to my next stop, which will be Empire. Between my deposit and bonus there, I’ll be ready to step up to 1/2 in short order. There’s not anything wrong with the .50/1.00 games at Party, but there’s no reason to spend more time there than I need to. I estimate that I’ll have about 250 BB for the higher limit once I clear the bonus at Empire, which should be plenty to get me started. Wish me luck!

My wife and I are going to be taking a vacation to celebrate our first anniversary. We’re leaving at the end of September and we’re going to be driving down through Montana and Utah on our way to Las Vegas where I hope to get some poker time in. We’ll be there for a couple of days, then we’re going to swing west to San Francisco and catch the Niners game against the Lions. My wife and I have always wanted to go to an NFL game, and it looks like we’ll be seeing one exactly one year after we got married! I’m really looking forward to the trip, and I hope that I don’t have to cripple my bankroll to help fund it. If all goes well, I’ll win enough in the next month that I don’t have to dip into it too much.

Hand 1 – They don’t do this on Paradise

Party .50/1.00 game: UTG+1 limps, UTG+2 raises (loose raiser, could be many hands), folded to me in the SB with T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I call (who 3 bets here?) and the BB calls. I decide to try and isolate the raiser who will almost surely bet the flop, whatever it may be.

Flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Well that qualifies as a relatively favorable flop. UTG+2 bets the flop and I check-raise. BB folds, UTG+1 calls 2 cold, raiser calls.

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet out, caller calls, raiser folds. Looks like my read was correct on the raiser, but I’m concerned that UTG+1 is hanging around with a weak queen.

River: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Ugh. If he was on spades, he’ll fold to a bet, and there aren’t any straight draws out there either, so I decide to check. He checks and my tens are good. Hand history shows that my friend in EP called two cold on the flop with 97o, and one on the turn with his newfound gutshot. Looks like I didn’t miss a bet on the end this time.

What do you think of the isolation play? Would I be better off simply 3 betting preflop and betting the flop into him? I find that some of these guys are very aggressive if you try to isolate them early, but will lay down to a checkraise on the flop if you haven’t shown any previous strength.

Hand 2 – Later that same day…

The caller in this hand is the same player as the caller in the last hand. The aggressor is a different LAG however.

UTG raises, New Friend (NF) coldcalls from EP, SB calls, I raise from the BB with my A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], UTG caps, NF calls, SB folds.

Flop: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

My hand is a big favorite here. I don’t know if I can remember the last time I slowplayed an overpair, but this seemed like a good time to make a couple of extra bets. UTG wasn’t aggressive enough to go 3 bets with a bad hand after the flop hit. I check, UTG bets, NF and I both call. The flush draw concerned me a bit, but I decided that I would reassess my actions if the 3rd heart hit on the turn.

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

No help for either of them. I check again, UTG bets, NF calls, I raise, both call. So far so good.

River: J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Well, unless one of them has some funky-ass hand that just made two pair, we’re still good. I bet out and both call me with their A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] respectively. Why did I ever leave Party?

Thoughts on the slowplay? As I mentioned, I rarely slowplay my hands, but given the benign nature of the flop, I felt I could make an extra bet on the turn playing the way I did. Given my opposition I don’t think there was any way they were going to fold once they hit their 4 on the flop, so at that point it was just a matter of how to maximize the profit.

So, unless someone can give me a compelling reason to play at Paradise, I’m going to stick with the Parquarium. I see no reason to play at a site where the players are better, tighter, and trickier when I have a choice in the matter. Perhaps I’ll head back when I have more experience with those types of games, but until then Party is definitely +EV for me. Cheers!

Diary #9

[davidross]

Buddha,

Go where the games are best. I've started playing paradise as well as Party this week and the Paradise 5/10 games have been good in the evening. But I'm going to spend the bulk of my time at Party until I find some reason to change.

On your TT hand, I would only 3 bet if I was pretty sure I would get it heads up. So in the Party games I play I would play it exactly as you did.

In tight games I was much more likely to slowplay. I am reluctant to do it at all at Party. In your situation you picked a great time to do it.

Hope your trip goes well.

[Redleg7]

Hi GrinningBuddha,
I've been monitoring both you and davidross's online adventure with much interest. Have you thought about jumping up to the 2/4 level?

After going on tilt then breaking even during a party .5/1 session I decided to throw 50 bucks into a 2/4 session (I committed a few cardinal sins low bankroll, etc.). To my surprise it turned into a good session. In this particular game things seemed less chaotic than the no fold'em games you find at the lower limits. Of course there are still players who are willing to chase but for the most part it "felt" more stable.

Ever since then I haven't looked back, so far 2/4 party has been good to me. Right now I'm playing on "air" since my bankroll is way below the suggested 300bb minimum, and I've encounterd a downswing but I'm still encouraged by the results. I have no problem playing with a less than optimal bankroll, playing online is a hobby, and I don't do it to make money my goal is to become a better player, so money isn't an issue.

I mention this to you because I believe you could do well at this level.

BTW, we did sit together once at a party .5/1 table it was a few weeks ago I was Steel_Rain7.

Good Luck.

[GrinningBuddha]

I certainly have looked at the higher limits and thought about wandering up there just to try them out. However, the pros have been outweighed by the cons up to this point, so I've been happy to stay where I am for now. I'm not scared to move up, but I don't want one bad session to set me back more than it needs to. I had a rough night last night, down close to 50 BB at one point, and managed to claw myself back to only a 16 BB loss for the evening. Had that happened at 1-2 or 2-4, I don't think I would have been prepared for the hit, both emotionally and bankroll-wise. More on that session to come. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

The way I see it is that I've been playing regularly for about a month and a half, I've got lots of time to move up. The lessons learned at .50/1.00 can be used at higher limits too.

See you again soon!

[Redleg7]

I agree one bad session can be devastating. I've only experienced a fraction of a bad session, before I called no joy and let it go. The tough part is being down, breaking even, then decide to go one more obit which turns to two, then three, now your stuck gain but this time you may not recover. Psychologically it may be better to quit once you are unstuck or within a certain amount of being unstuck (in your case 16bb down). I was within 3bb of being unstuck but hung around trying to make it up then ended being 40bb down. Technically I wasn't down at least from the perspective of time in this case the weekend. I was actually up 50bb after all was said and done.

Question, I know that once you put money in the pot it belongs to the pot. Is there a similar concept that applies to money you've won?

For example if I win 200 bucks in one session then lose 100 in another, am I down a 100 or up a 100? So once I win the money it becomes part of my bankroll losing it becomes a negative. I realize this may be a stupid question just wondering what others think, or maybe it just doesn't matter.

I agree take your time make the move when you feel it's time. In my case my success at 2/4 may have been a bad thing since it reinforced the idea that I can play at this level even though my bankroll can't support it.


Keep up the great posts.

[GrinningBuddha]

For example if I win 200 bucks in one session then lose 100 in another, am I down a 100 or up a 100? So once I win the money it becomes part of my bankroll losing it becomes a negative. I realize this may be a stupid question just wondering what others think, or maybe it just doesn't matter.

It's all one big session. I see no difference between playing fifty 2 hour sessions or playing a single 100 hour session; either you're winning at the end or you're losing at the end. Since we're human, we need to put artificial break points in between our sessions for food, sleep, work, etc. Without those breakpoints, you would never hear "I lost 20 BB this session" or "I won 50 BB". It would simply be one continuous line winding ever upwards, or so one hopes.

I lost 16 BB last night, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the winnings I've had earlier this session. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

In my case my success at 2/4 may have been a bad thing since it reinforced the idea that I can play at this level even though my bankroll can't support it.

Meh. If your bankroll is a static beast that can't be replenished, then you should be playing lower. If you can feed it, playing 2-4 isn't necessarily bad. The more important concern is whether the player can play at that level. Even a fat bankroll won't help someone who's in over his head. What better way to find out than to put in time at the microlimit tables? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

These are my views and I'd quite frankly be surprised if anyone else shared them. That is all.

[Uppercut]

Hey GB: We briefly played together at a Paradise .50-1.00 table a few days ago. I ended up switching to another table after about 5 straight pots that did not exceed $4. I agree that Paradise can sometimes be extremely tight and tough, even at the lowest level. But some other times, especially on weekend nights, there can be some extremely fishy players there as well. I believe it was Sunday night that I sat down and played for an hour at a table in which one player played every single hand that he was dealt. He dropped well over $75 in that time at the lowest level table. When he finally left, the rest of the table commented that they had never seen a fish quite like that one. I actually had a streak of 9 straight winning sessions at paradise until last night, where I never received a starting hand better than KQo in one hour of play. I ended up folding that hand in EP only to see the flop come KKQ. I guess it just wasn't my night last night. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[GrinningBuddha]

I remember, I said gl Uppercut, but you didn't see it before it scrolled off, I'm sure. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm sure Paradise has its loose nights, but I find that Party is like that every night, so game selection is much easier there. I guess it just depends on your play style. More aggressive play is rewarded more at Paradise, since there are fewer people in and they are more likely to fold. On Party, you generally need to show down the best hand. And doesn't necessarily mean AA. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I'll head back to Paradise in the future with more experience under my belt. Who knows, maybe I'll prefer that style to the no foldem holdem of Party as time goes on. The beats can sure be frustrating...

[slavic]

David-

Nice playing with you last night. I don't know on the Paradise 5/10 if they are good, they seem to switch to being rock gardens within 200 hands. The fish just don't bring enough cash to the table.

[AliasMrJones]

I started at UB and still like the interface and many tournaments there better than Party, but there are a LOT more people at Party and they all seem to come from WPT commercials and tend to play anything and stick with garbage till the end. For a beginner that doesn't have a lot of tricks up his sleeves you can just play basic hold 'em strategy and when you get a flop, play it to the hilt. You will occaisionally get a bad beat because they play hands so long, but I've made much more raising and re-raising great hands with them following till the end than lost because people chase to the river.

On UB, I've noticed that the lowest-limit games (.25/.50) are quite loose preflop, often 50%, the next level up (.50/1) are tighter and sometimes quite tight and then the next level ($1/$2) loosen up again. I wonder if this is a phenomenon at other sites where absolute beginners mainly start at the lowest level and move up after they've learned some things and started winning, but some people don't like the tiny stakes games and start higher creating better action at the third-lowest stakes than at the second-lowest? (i.e that it isn't true that the players get better as the stakes go up...that players at the second tier are actually better, or at least tighter, than the third tier.) I haven't played above $1/$2 at UB so I don't know about anything higher than that there.

So, I've been playing at some at UB, though mostly tourneys and more and more at Party where I'm making a lot more than I did at UB. UB and Party both have ads on the WPT so I'm not sure why there seem to be so many more bad players on Party than UB, but it definitely seems to be the case to me.

(Caveat, while I've studied several hold'em books and do pretty well in the mini-stakes games and $5 buy-in tournaments, I'm very much a beginner having only played real money for a few weeks now so take everything above with a grain of salt.)