Straight and flush draws on board with top set.

Nukid · #1 08-21-2003, 04:54 PM

Playing in PLHE homegame with two .50 cent blinds. I'm in the small blind with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. It's folded to me, and I raise the pot ($1) big blind calls. He has $49.50 after putting in his buck fifty, and I have him covered.

So, $3 in the pot, and the flop comes 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Scariest top set flop I've ever flopped. I check to him, and he bets three, I raise nine, and he comes back with a raise of 27. Thus it's 27 to call with 54 in the pot, and him only having $10.50 behind. So what is my play? I decided to push all in, because if he is doing this with a hand like A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I want to get the extra $10.50, and if he has the flush, if I just call the flop bet, he goes all in on the turn. So I think that pushing him all in is definitely better than calling, but does anyone fold here?

Copernicus · #2 08-21-2003, 05:25 PM

Don't ask me...I didnt even know you could raise a $6 pot $9 in PL.

I couldnt fold once I was so committed to the pot. If I were going to fold I would have done it after my $9 raise was re-raised. Even if he's made a hand, youve become pot bound since you are getting 2/1 and have slightly better than 1/3 chance of a boat or quads (disregarding the reverse implied odds of his straight flush).

As far as all-in vs. just calling, I agree, go all in. If he's on a draw you want to make him pay and not save him the 10.50 if he misses. If he made it already he's not folding now or later, and you are pot bound to call the last 10.50. I cant see any scenario that favors not going all in.

Nukid · #3 08-21-2003, 05:59 PM

After he bet three, there was the original 3 dollars, his bet, and my call, so I raised nine. The question I was really asking was if I should fold when he comes back at me with the $27 dollar raise.

Jon Matthews · #4 08-21-2003, 06:29 PM

tough one... i'd push in and grit my teeth, i reckon you're on a coinflip with both of your reverse implied odds cancelling each other out?

just to be pedantic, though, i know where the $9 raise came from but surely a pot raise BTF would have made it $3 to go?

Jon

Zag · #5 08-22-2003, 12:47 PM

I think your title is a not quite right. That flop might not be draws, it could be a made straight or a made flush.

You should just have called the flop bet and hope the board pairs. If it doesn't and you are faced with another pot-sized bet, dump it.

turnipmonster · #6 08-22-2003, 01:33 PM

note that I am a complete pot limit newbie. the only reason I am posting here is so I can learn something.

given that it's a scary flop and we really have no idea what he has, and if he does have a straigh or flush draw you really only have a little more than 7 outs to beat him, and you're out of position, do you really want to play a big pot with this hand?

the problem I see with it is you really have no idea where he's at, and so you're raising to make him pay to draw, when it's you that might be drawing (if he has a made hand). even if he doesn't have a made hand, there are at least 15 cards that scare the hell out of you and probably help him.

so my thinking (quite possibly incorrect) would be to call the flop bet, and then fire on the turn even if a scare card hits. in my very limited potlimit experience, calling (unlike in limit) can be a very scary play because then he has to figure out what you're calling him with, which in your case is going to be very hard for him to do.

--turnipmonster

thylacine · #7 08-22-2003, 02:22 PM

Calling the 27 (and hence putting in his last 10.50 which seems automatic if you call the 27) depends on what you think are your chances of winning, which in turn depend son what you think he has. I have no idea how you figure the likelyhood of each of his possible hands.

But I just want to comment that since you plan to put in 37.50=27+10.50, (and he will surely call the 10.50) you are getting pot odds of 37.50 to 64.50=54+10.50, so you need to figure yourself to have at least 36.8%=37.50/102 chance of winning (rather than just 1/3=27/81).

tewall · #8 08-22-2003, 03:22 PM

Why did you check the flop instead of betting it? If you lead out, then you're the one making the last big bet instead of him. Against most players you'd prefer this so that you're the one making the big bet with either the drawing hand or the made hand and thus the one applying the pressure rather than the other way around.

If you call instead of raise the last 10$, you might be able to save $10 if something like the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] comes on the turn (and you can read you opponent well -- you'd sure hate to fold to something like 2 pair). On the other hand, the board could pair and maybe you'd lose the chance of collecting the $10. It's an interesting academic question, but in reality it's hard to imagine any scenario where all the money isn't going in.

MrOmaha · #9 08-23-2003, 10:12 PM

One thing is for certain you must either Muck or Move in after the flop. Personally, I would strongly consider laying this hand down in the face of a big bet. My reasoning at this point is that you could be against a hand that you can not defeat no matter what comes on the turn or the river. This is not to say that I favor a timid or weak style of play. However, what if he has 89 of Spades. I may be over cautiaus at this point but given that there could be a few holdings where you simply can not win the pot and a number of holdings that have you beaten at this time especially in a Heads up situation I would wait until I had a better outlay than to risk my chips at this pot. Pot Limit and No Limit are all about patience. You want to be the one with the made hand and putting the other player to a decision. Just My Opinion would welcome any responses.

Guy McSucker · #10 08-24-2003, 05:15 AM

so you need to figure yourself to have at least 36.8%=37.50/102 chance of winning

That's right. And since you'll beat a straight or flush about 34% of the time, and there's a chance you're ahead already, and the chance of being against a straight flush is small, I think moving in is the right choice here.

Guy.