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#1
08-13-2003, 07:41 PM
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made gutshot on turn
Loose somewhat passive 10-20 game. I am in SB with 56s. 2 MP players call, I call, BB checks. 4 players see
Flop: 48Trb I check, BB bets, and everyone calls. I make a borderline call (OK?). Now the turn is of course a 7 (no flush draw). What do you do here? Results to follow. 
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#4
08-13-2003, 09:57 PM
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Re: made gutshot on turn
You defied the odds. Bet and, like the man said, hope you're not up against J9 and that nothing pairs on the river to raise the ugly spectre of a fh.
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#6
08-14-2003, 03:01 AM
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Re: made gutshot on turn
hi bill
before entering in with this hand, you must consider just this eventuality. this is totally predictable pre-flop. when you start to think about what transpires after hitting your hand within reason, you begin to realize that we need to consider more than just odds, even when your call closes the action and you appear to be getting correct odds. for example, if you are getting correct 7 to 1 odds on the pre-flop, but somehow knew that you were going to flop a flush, but also knew that when you bet out everyone would fold, but that also if you checked, a free-card would hit on the turn putting a four flush on board, would you call on the pre-flop?......this anology is......i'll keep it up, but this is a very liberal anology. basically bill, correct odds do not equal correct position. you may be getting correct odds on the pre-flop call, but not correct action after your hand completes. it's the action AFTER your hand completes that you must think about first, BEFORE entering into the hand, not just odds. and without getting technical, after careful study, you will realize that odds and 'after completion' action are inter-related and inextricably combined. no matter what odds you're getting, from the SB, if you complete your draw, you will be forced to make a decision that can be used against you by the better players to cut-down your odds. no matter what you do, check or bet, the better players behind you can check or fold. their option to check or fold behind you must be factored into any pre-flop odds you're getting. sometimes, with a big suited connector, for example, you actually can manipulate a little and gain a few of those odds brownie points back. your odds aren't as good as they would be from last position, of course. from last position you add odds brownie points on! from first position, of course, you deduct those odds points, on some hands like the big suited connectors, you deduct fewer points, but on other hands, like small suited connectors, or unsuited middle connectors, you deduct a lot of odds points. why? because those hands are extremely vulnerable and must be protected, but can't be because of the lack of knowledge poor position gives you. you don't know HOW to protect those vulnerable hands at the same time that your opponent is gaining knowledge on HOW to hurt your out of position vulnerable hand. that knowledge lost or gained rises and falls with position, which in turn produces favorable or unfavorable action, which in turn gives you effective odds. but it all starts with position. on the pre-flop, you're dealt a vulnerable hand out of position. i can't tell you what to do. i just want you to have something juxtaposed to the mitigating factor of passive action, so that when you decide what to do, you'll hopefully do so more intelligently. what would i do? i would fold. i would need very, very passive action to enter in with that from that position. you said it was only passive. but at least now you know why i would fold, and oh no! here they come now!!
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#7
08-14-2003, 02:14 PM
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Re: made gutshot on turn
Well, J9 beats ya and in a loose game that wouldn't be too uncommon a starter kit, but what the heck stick out a bet and see what happens?
Picturing a sob story with a pair on river and guy with TT in his hand though. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] -t
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