Sit'nGo...yup, I'm a total moron

Jerboa · #1 07-31-2003, 05:31 PM

Ok...I've been a lurker here for quite some time. Now I have to beat myself up over the dumbest play I've made. It's that or tilt for a week.

The situation: A 1-table sit-n-go at PStars.
There are 4 players left. I have about $3800T. The big stack has about twice my stack. The other two have about half my stack.

200/400 blind, 25 ante

I get AK [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] UTG, I raise to 1200. The big stack, on the button makes it 2400. My brain shuts down, and I immediately go all-in.

Button turns over QQ, and the flop comes 8 Q 4

Bye bye me, in 4th...when I was #2 in chips!

I honestly don't know what I was thinking. I knew he would come in like that without at least a high pair. After the button raised, at best I would be in a race. At worst he reraised with AA, or KK. I could have gotten away from the hand, still 2 orbits ahead of the 3rd and 4th players.

What makes it even worse, right after I busted out, I started watching the WSOP, and saw Annie Duke lay AK down to a large bet. Now that was salt in the wound.

Ok...folks...please berate me. I deserve it.

Copernicus · #2 07-31-2003, 05:41 PM

Visit the "Psychology Board" thread on religion, say 30 "Hail Doyles", promise yourself you will never do it again, then put on a hooded sweatshirt backwards and slam your forehead with a board 3000 times (the sweatshirt is to avoid marking your face).

That should learn ya.

BTW wasn't Annie ahead on that hand?

cferejohn · #3 07-31-2003, 05:45 PM

I think you almost have to go all-in here. I would have done it nearly every time (unless I was *sure* the chip leader wouldn't have done this with anything but QQ-AA). You put in nearly 1/3 of your stack with your initial bet. When you do this with AKs, you have to be willing to put all your chips in the middle. You are easily getting odds in as long as he didn't have AA (and with you holding AK, this is obviously less likely).

Anyway 4 handed lots of players will make this move with anything better than AT and any pair better than 8s. I don't see how you can assume a pair here, unless you know the chip leader is super super tight.

In the WSOP, stacks are a lot deeper so laying down AK to a huge bet makes more sense than doing it after already commiting a third of you stack.

You were close to the point where your preflop raise should have been all-in anyway.

Copernicus · #4 07-31-2003, 06:01 PM

In joking I failed to comment that the error was in the original $1200 raise, I thought that was pretty obvious. With this solid a chip position you just don't make big moves like that pre-flop and out of position. "You can't hurry hands" (forgive me Supremes). He was in the money barring big losses, then violated every tournament principle there is. (Squared off against a big stack, raised when he would hate a re-raise, played out of position, etc etc etc). Make it 60 Hail Doyles and 10,000 whacks.

cferejohn · #5 07-31-2003, 06:07 PM

So you're saying fold or you're saying all-in? Or you're saying that either of them is preferable to the 1200 raise (that I agree with)?

Frankly, the next time I fold AKs preflop four handed will be the first.

That's not counting those weird supersattelite situations where you are a medium small stack on the bubble and there are a couple very small stacks that you are waiting to bust out. Any scaled pay structure though, I'm all in 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.

Jerboa · #6 07-31-2003, 08:40 PM

Exactly, Copernicus...that's why I was so mad at myself. But even after making the mistake of the raise (at the time, everyone had been very tight for a few hands..figured that would take down the blinds.)...
...but even after that, I could have gotten away from that hand with 2nd stack.

SoCalPat · #7 07-31-2003, 08:57 PM

Yup, you're a total moron [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Seriously, in an all-in situation, it's much, much better to be first in with AK, rather than calling, as AK is an underdog (albeit slight) to any pair. You go all in at the start, and your big stack just might lay down QQ (although highly unlikely, given his lead). Either way, the result is the same, but you can rest easily knowing you were the aggressor and just ran into a bigger hand.

Calling a huge raise with AK, as you've already discovered, isn't your best play here. You've already spelled out the reasons why.

Personally, I'm almost tempted to go all-in with AK at any time, as I'm sick of flopping top pair after a 4-5X raise on the blinds, only to see some schmuck with A-rag flop 2 pair and knock me out.

punkass · #8 07-31-2003, 10:28 PM

Ive read below some responses telling you should've gone all in. I think you should've folded to the reraise.

Why would he risk his first place stack 4 way by challenging you unnecessarily? The least he should have is QQ. I'd fold to his reraise everytime 4 way. You still have 3600, and still in good position to easily cash ahead of the other short stacks.

At best, you are up against an overzealous AJ or AQ. At worst, you are up against AA or KK. Any other pocket pair, and you're 50/50.

Why risk it?

Copernicus · #9 08-01-2003, 01:24 AM

I would limp and fold to any raise from the big stack. From the smaller stacks I would look at the flop for a reasonable raise (10-15%)

nicky g · #10 08-01-2003, 07:29 AM

You would limp 4 handed w/AK with huge blinds, giving the shortstacked blinds a free shot to outdraw you? I think this is a bad idea. AK is a monster 4 ahned - his only mistake was in playing it all-in against the other big stack (I agree, a fold to the reraise would have been best, though I probably wouldn't have done it - in fact I probably would have gone all-in, though I see that a raise you can get away from if the big stack finds a hand is more sensible). Even so it's hardly the worst play in the world - half the time you win, giving you a great shot to win the whole thing (and believe me, if i had have been the big stack, you would havehit your ace) - though you probably could have had 2nd if you'd folded. Perhaps I'm too aggressive.