Flop Broadway, Turn flushes. Now what?

JohnShaft · #1 07-22-2003, 11:05 PM

After waiting a long time for a decent hand to post I finally got just what I maybe didn't want, 3 in a row. Here's the first of them.

I've sat at a slightly loose, and in spots aggressive 3/6 table (with one player seeing every flop) for an hour. I have won one hand in 50. My image is obvious.

(a bit too loose) UTG limps, (a not very solid) EMP raises, it's folded round to me in the BB and I make perhaps my loosest call of the night with A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] Intending to CR him any Ace or Ten.

The flop comes Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]
Flopped the broadway straight, can't be bad. I bet out knowing I'll get action on this flop.
UTG instantly raises, PFR 3 bets, I cap. Happy now.

The turn is 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] Ugh. Though does it matter?
I bet out. UTG raises me. PFR calls.

What's my action? (Now and the river)

pufferfish · #2 07-22-2003, 11:34 PM

Grit teeth, call turn.

River: if no fourth diamond, call it down and hope to split or better.

TC,
pf

Clarkmeister · #3 07-23-2003, 01:02 AM

3-bet

Ed Miller · #4 07-23-2003, 02:52 AM

I'd 3-bet. You don't really have any good reason to put one of your opponents on diamonds.

rigoletto · #5 07-23-2003, 05:36 AM

3-bet, UTG is not likely to be on a big draw with his flop raise (he would have called hoping for the PFR to raise for him). PRF probably has a set or AA - strike that, he has AK.

JohnShaft · #6 07-23-2003, 01:22 PM

I sat there and thought about it, and decided to 3-bet him because, with his instant flop raise, I just couldn't put him on a flush. I was putting him on a flopped two pair most likely. And I also figured that I could get another BB out of the PFR who I KNEW I had beat.

When UTG capped I went "Uh Oh".

I check-called the river and he turned over A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 2 :diamond.gif: and the turned flush.
I almost typed in the chat "how the [censored] could you raise that on the flop?".
[The PFR had KQs for a flopped top two.]

And, to think, I thought I was calling thin preflop, when I actually had the 'best hand'.

Aces McGee · #7 07-23-2003, 01:32 PM

Hi John

Not that I put him on that hand, either, but don't the members of this forum generally suggest strongly playing your draws? If so...UTG's play isn't all that bad. Also...could he have been raising the flop to see a free turn? Didn't work, of course, but he'd be getting the implied odds to call two more on the flop, right?

Comments appreciated.

Aces McGee

rkiray · #8 07-23-2003, 02:50 PM

I think you hit the nail on the head Aces. I would raise with his hand every time. Not only does he have a flush draw, he also has a gut shot. True it would only split the pot but he doesn't know that. If you only raise when you have a made hand you give away too much info, IMHO.

JohnShaft · #9 07-23-2003, 03:23 PM

Well yeah I see your point. I suppose he thinks he has a further 3 outs (if a 10 hits) to the probable best hand.

But raising flush draws right after a bettor doesn't make much sense to me. The only reason the play isn't as bad as it seems is that *for this hand* he is unlikely to fold the PFR with his raise. But he MAY have gotten ME to fold to the PFR's *very likely* 3-bet, thus considerably harming his drawing odds.

I see people raise a bettor with a draw on the flop making others fold and it is just a BAD play. It isn't as simple as "play your draws aggressively".

So I don't think he played the hand well, as, has been mentioned he would have been better calling, waiting for the PFR to raise, and then he could have 3 bet or capped.
I also think it's a borderline 3-bet/cap on the flop if he didn't have the gutshot straight draw. Why? He's 2-1 to make his flush, and is getting at best 2-1 on his money, and maybe knocking someone out. Not to mention that if any big card hits he could well be dead to PFR's boat.

I think limping UTG with A2s, in a mostly non-loose table, isn't a great idea either...
The (speed of his) bet makes me think it was more a case of "I flopped a four flush - RAISE" rather than considering if he was killing his action...

I'm glad I wasn't the only one to advocate the 3-bet though.

rkiray · #10 07-23-2003, 03:32 PM

I agree with you that he should have folded preflop.

But remember from his perspective both the flush and straight draws are nuts draws. Since they are both nut draws I think I would almost always raise with them. If I kill the action, it's not that bad. Especially if both people fold either the flop or to a turn bet. Since you were playing so tght, he might think that you would fold here. Or if his raise got the other guy out, he would have the option to taking a free card to his draws on the turn. The more I think about this hand, the clearer it is to raise on the flop.