Should I stop trying?

[PocketKings]

I have been trying to survive on Hold'em 15-30 in California. So far seems like I am not ready yet for the game. My score is about 400 hours playing with a loss about $8,000 (this spreads in more than a year). However I am doing okay at 10-20 level with more than 1 BB/Hour win.

I checked my records about this 15-30 game and found that usually my maximum loss is almost 40% higher than my winning.

I took Bob Ciafone's advice and don't cut any loss. When I lose seems like I just couldn't stop it... [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img](

However I do see for the last 100 hours of playing, the score looks better than the last 300 hours of play in the game.

Could you experts here give me some advices of how to beat the game? Or should I just forget about this game?

Thanks in advance!

[Louie Landale]

"Don't stop your loss" is for players that have great empathy and control for their own mental and emotional state, can do likewise for the opponents, and are very confident they can beat the game. Yes, if you are sure you are a favorite then keep playing confidently and it doesn't matter if you are currently losing. Yaddy Yaddy.

This is pretty silly advice for the rest of us, especially those paranoid about playing over their heads. [1] you are already paranoid and a current loss is GOING to make you play more tentatively; the opponents can feel that and take advantage of it [2] if you are losing there is a higher probability its because you are seriously outclassed by this line up.

I believe you need to consider yourself a 10/20 player that is willing to take occational shots at favorable 15/30 games. When you start feeling paranoid, no matter the good or bad reason, stop playing and move back down into your comfort zone.

If you MUST play outside your comfort zone then play squeaky tight before the flop; about half as many hands as 2+2 recommends. Really.

- Louie

[Diplomat]

It's hard to say without knowing how you play, but if you are generally getting hammered at 15-30 and not at 10-20, someone is telling you to stick to 10-20. Spend some time at that limit trying to improve. You should be able to identify why you have difficulty with 15-30 (I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with putting out 1/3 more chips... [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] ) and address that difficulty. Are the players better? If so, in what way? How are they beating you in that game? Are you playing with scared money, and unable to be at your best? Do you have difficulty reading hands? Are the chairs more comfortable at the 10-20 tables?

I disagree with Louie regarding playing less hands. That's far from playing optimal, and you will get slaughtered by most decent players once they catch on. That said, I definitely agree that you should be more careful with game selection if you are having difficulty with this limit...don't leap into a cured-leather-tough 15-30 game for your first shot at it.

That said, often one of the biggest first hurdles to overcome (or it was for me, and a few others that moved up with me) was hand selection. And remember, it's situational as well as positional. The other one is hand reading ability, which can never be too good.

Go play 10-20. Think about why you are being beat at 15-30...really think about why that game is tougher for you. Repair your bankroll. Make appropriate changes. Take another shot.

-Diplomat

[bruce]

400 hours is not enough time to draw any conclusions. 15-30 plays much differently than 10-20 because of the blind structures and hopefully you have adjusted your game accordingly. I would play mostly 10-20 and selectively when the bigger game looks juicey take a shot. In the bigger game tighten up more BTF. Throwing in 4 chips from the small blind is tempting but be careful.

Bruce

[RydenStoompala]

No you shouldn't stop trying. You do need to know that you can be there, so if the swings are bothering you, build up a bigger stack on 10-20 and then head back. I also found the jump to 20-40 from 10-20 a little more difficult than I had hoped, but it sounds like you are keeping good records and recognize when you are outmatched. You might also try a little travelling, playing the larger limits in other casinos and cardrooms. I find a huge difference between different cities in terms of game toughness, availability of games (choices) and ambiance. Also, facing really tough locals in other cities helped my game more than any other factor.

[PocketKings]

Thank you all for your advices!

You are definitely right the several big losses are co-related with the tough line-up at the table, usually consisting of players from bigger games, plus couple of pros, who plays at this level almost everyday(I mostly play over weekends).

Here's my plan...
Keep building bankroll at 10-20 level.
Whenever regaining confidence, check out line-up at 15-30.
Cut loss.

I will let you all know how I will be doing, probably months later.

[Boopotts]

One thing to remember about 15-30 is that you end up playing more hands in early position, as a result of the blind structure. This changes the game in a number of ways, although the most obvious effect is that it punishes players who don't completely understand how position can change the way any particular hand is played.

This may be you, or it may not be--- it's possible that you've just hit a bad patch in 15-30. But you may want to re-think some of your blind play-- in particular, how you play in short-handed pots, and whether your bluffing frequency is set correctly. Somebody- I can't remember who-- once said that the hardest thing about HE is playing from the small blind. Since 15-30 puts a premium on this skill, it's one that's worth developing if you intend to keep playing these games.

Anyway, hope this helps. Best of luck to you.