Pocket JJs Fcaes Turn Reraise

mojobluesman · #1 12-13-2005, 12:32 PM

No read on opponent. Just call this down?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls $0.18 (All-In), 1 fold, MP1 calls.

Flop: (11.36 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players, 1 all-in)
SB bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.18 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players, 1 all-in)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (11.18 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players, 1 all-in)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.18 BB

#2 12-13-2005, 12:38 PM

When the SB donks on the flop, I seriously consider that he has the King, unless I have a really solid read. I usually call one SB in this case and fold the turn UI.

#3 12-13-2005, 12:53 PM

Without reads, I'm folding the turn u/i. The donk bet on the flop could represent a king, but there's the chance he could be betting a flush draw or medium pocket pair, so I like the flop raise. When he 3-bets, it looks like he means business. If he leads the turn, I'm folding.

#4 12-13-2005, 01:03 PM

Without reads on villian I think you've got to fold on the turn. Yes, the pot is pretty big, but he called 2.5 preflop with something. He woke up on the flop and didn't back down to your continued aggression. If you know villian's willing to be that aggressive with a FD or underpair, then calling down is okay, but even then I don't think you'll win 1 in 12 times with that river card. My guess is villian has Kxs, KQ, KJ, KT, 44, or XXc.

NobodysFreak · #5 12-13-2005, 01:13 PM

I think there are two ways to look at this hand. One, the SB has picked up a strong draw on the flop and he wants to extract the most from it or two, he has a king with a weak kicker and wants the flush draws out of the hand.

I think we need raise on the turn and fold to a 3-bet. No A high flush draw is three-betting here unless he's a total maniac and if we do get three bet I think its safe to say we're done with this hand.

@bsolute_luck · #6 12-13-2005, 03:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think we need raise on the turn and fold to a 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is spewing seeing as it is HU and the villain is OOP, let him continue to bet into you and just call the turn and river if you believe you are ahead.

i think people have this hand BACKWARDS. you pay this off WITHOUT a read. it is WITH a read whether to fold, cap the flop, see the showdown. it is HU and we have a showdown-worthy hand against an opponent we don't know who could be betting stupid with a small pocket or flush draw. i pay this off against an unknown.

NobodysFreak · #7 12-13-2005, 04:34 PM

The HU thing confused me because it says there are four players on the turn. Is the converter messed up?

@bsolute_luck · #8 12-13-2005, 04:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The HU thing confused me because it says there are four players on the turn. Is the converter messed up?

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess. preflop shows UTG+1 folded, BBs all in, and MP3 folded the flop.

#9 12-13-2005, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think people have this hand BACKWARDS. you pay this off WITHOUT a read. it is WITH a read whether to fold, cap the flop, see the showdown. it is HU and we have a showdown-worthy hand against an opponent we don't know who could be betting stupid with a small pocket or flush draw. i pay this off against an unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this a showdown worthy hand? All We've got is 2nd pair against a villian that called a 3bet preflop and then led and reraised the flop. Yes, I've seen people getting aggressive with underpairs and flush draws, but I think most people slow down with an underpair after a 3bet flop. After villian reraised the flop, I am willing to give him a lot of credit, unless he's shown me something different. Micro players are generally bad, but for someone to overplay an underpair this much would be maniacal. I don't see it happening often enough for calling down to be +ev without a read.

NobodysFreak · #10 12-13-2005, 05:15 PM

SB has the odds to bet a strong flush draw which could be an argument for raising the turn since we're unlikely to get 3-bet here by someone continuing to draw. We're likely to be 3-bet by something we're already beaten by. We lose the same amount if we raise the turn and fold to a three bet as we do if we call down and lose.