Starting Hands - What do you think?

[Play Tight]

There was a thread started on this BB about a particular hand and if the open raise was proper or not. I have been working on my play and have came up with these low limit starting hand requirements (SHR's) for myself. I don't intend to mislead anyone into thinking I have re-cerated the wheel, these SHR's are my opinions from many hours of play and are also combined with the knowledge I have gleamed from studying many books writen by poker minds much greater then my own.

I play a tight aggressive game and follow the motto from the Winning Low Limits Hold'em book by Lee Jones - GIVE ME A REASON TO FOLD.

Based on a 10 person table - Based on typical game but SHR's will tighten up based on more calling stations.

s = suited, o = offsuit, no denotion = both suited and offsuit, & x = any card

EP (seats 1 to 4) - Open raise AA-JJ and AK
Limp AQ & 10's Fold all else

MP (seats 5 to 7) - Open raise AA-10's and AK, AQs, & KQs
Limp AQo, AJ, 9's, A9s and above, K10s and above, KQo, & QJs. Fold all else

LP (seats 8 to 10) - Open raise AA-9's and AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, & QJs
Limp 8's-2's, Axs, Kxs, Qxs, QJo, J10, suited connectors above 6, & suited one gap connectors above 7. Fold all else

These SHR's are based on an unraised pot but for the most part I will 2 or even 3 bet the pot with almost all of the Raising SHR's but probably fold most of the limp SHR's from EP, MP, & most of the connectors from LP.

I have probably missed a hand or two here or there but for the most part these are the SHR's I have been following lately. I play very few hands and push them hard all the time relying on the motto - GIVE ME A REASON TO FOLD. My profits are up considerably and I feel that I lose very little to the rake.

Agree or disagree and why?

[Ed Miller]

I play slightly looser and considerably more aggressively preflop than these guidlines suggest. I raise in many/most situations that you are limping with such as AQ, AJ, KQ, 99, and the big suited cards.

I basically never open limp from MP or LP... I would be raising basically all of the hands that you propose limping with in those spots.

[SossMan]

I am pretty similar in my starting hand requirements, and from what I can remember, these are pretty similar to Lee Jones' w/ some exceptions.
Majorkong had a good point (like he usually does) about being more aggressive in MP and LP especially when you are opening. Anything you can play in middle and late deserves a raise if you are first in.
Maybe you do adjust for that, and you just didn't specify it in your post.
Also, what do you do with your weak raising hands from MP or LP (i.e. 10's, KQ, QJs, etc...) when there is a raise in front of you. (Pump it or dump it??)

Also, I don't think you necessarily need to tighten up w/ more calling stations, just change the composition of the hands you play...(it's been said a million times before on 2+2, more suited connectors, small/med pairs)
It's true though...these are hands that like to get in cheap and hit big or fold on the flop. (or as Mike Sexton has says 40 times in two hours on WPT, "this is the kind of hand you want to see a flop with")
Generally, if there's not alot of preflop raising, but lots of callers, I'll limp in EP w/ Axs,Kxs,pairs up to 88 or 99. I think you give up too much if you fold these in the right kind of game.
But, like DS says, you have to be able to fold K [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] on a flop of K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] when bet into. This is probably my biggest leak...not getting away from top pair no kicker hands.

good luck to you...

[Play Tight]

Sossman,

I appreciate the advice and the questions.

You are correct on the similarities to Lee Jones' book. I have added some of my own opinions to MP and LP limping hands, but most of the raising hands are dead on matches.

As far as upgrading my MP and LP limping hands to raising hands? So both Majorkong and you believe I should be more aggressive with these hands. I will have to play these for awhile and get back to you on this one. I have been using this system for approx. 6 to 8 months without fail (ok I breakdown and play trash hands like everyone else once in awhile,) and have been doing quite well for the most part.

What do I do with MP & LP limping hands with a raise in front? Always with MP I will dump them when I first sit down until I have a feel for the texture of the game. I know that 80% or more of the players I sit with do not have the same SHR's that I play with and when I can determine this I call. I tend to call with a raise in front from LP with my specified limping hands, especially from the CO or Button.

A question I would like to ask of you is if you limp with say AJo or KQo from MP and get a raise behind you do put more condisderation on the player (rock vs. maniac) or the pot odds based on the number of callers to you? I try and analysis both but tend to put more consideration on the pot odds at this point.

You mentioned that you tend to limp from EP with 9's, 8's, Axs, & Kxs. I used to limp with much worse and then try and defend. I realized that this was my biggest leak. I tightend up to similar standards as to what you suggested and although it was better I still felt that I was giving away to much advantage to LP players to bet when over cards hit my low pairs and especially felt trapped when I hit an A or K and had no kicker. I feel that the occasional pot I could pull with these hands does not even come close to the losses I was taking.

Once again thanks for the feedback and advice. I'll let you know how it works.

[Dynasty]

EP (seats 1 to 4) - Open raise AA-JJ and AK
Limp AQ & 10's Fold all else

MP (seats 5 to 7) - Open raise AA-10's and AK, AQs, & KQs
Limp AQo, AJ, 9's, A9s and above, K10s and above, KQo, & QJs. Fold all else

This is a very bad system. You should abandon it immediately.

Your ridiculously tight play is costing you money. In any typical low-limit game (meaning loose-passive), you should be playing any pocket pair in any position. You also seem to be folding KQs and AJs in EP. That's absurd.

More importantly, your hand selection doesn't seem to take into account how many players have limped in ahead of you. If a couple players limp ahead of you and you are in MP, it is insane to fold hands such as JTs or T9s.

Your whole system is severely flawed. I doubt you can be a long term winner playing like this.

[lil']

This may work for you now, but it won't work forever. Better to be tight than loose, but this is too tight. Observant players will give you zero action.

[Dynasty]

Play Tight,

The "play any pocket pair for one bet from EP" is not something I simply made up. If you need some authority figure to give you advice, here's an excerpt from HEPFAP, pages 165-166 (Playing in Loose Games)

...So when the game is good, you should play more hands, specifically suited hands, but only if it appears that you can get in cheaply with them...

...if you are in a loose, passive game where they usually call, but only occassionally raise, you should play any Axs under the gun. You should also be playing a hand like Js9s under the gun, and anything better. You should play these hands because you are going to win a lot when you hit them. That is, you take advantage of bad play. You would also play all pairs.

This advice to starting hand selection applies perfectly in almost all low-limit games.

You seem to be a new player. So, I'm assuming you're going through a process of learning pre-flop play which inevitably includes playing ultra-tight. But, to be a long term winner, you have to move beyond that.

[Play Tight]

Dynasty,

I can appreciate your advice for what it is, but just as I have been saying in this post as well as in Festus22's post "to each there own." Meaning you must determine your own style of play. What works for me may not work for you and vice versa.

It is true that I play low limits and this may lead you to believe that I'm a newbie. I live in Colorado where state law dictates that any "legal" casino stick to the $5 maximum wager there for I play $2 to $5 anytime poker. I do travel frequently and also play in some underground local clubs where I usually play at the $15-30 or $20-40 levels with great success. I have been playing for many years and am a very successful player, so please don't try to flaunt any supposed knowledge and expierence that you might think you have over me.

I find it funny that you only play mid-limit games but fancy yourself the expert on low limit games. I do agree that you will run into many loose-passive games at lower limits but you will also see just as many loose-aggressive games. I have devised my game to fit both styles with little if any modifications. But no matter the game style I will continue to disagree with the play any pair from any postion. Your looking at a 4% chance of hitting a set on the flop. In a raised or unraised pot I'm out of there with 7's or less.

Poker is a game that can be played many ways. I will play how I like and you can do the same, if your happy with your style then go with it. I like how I play and therefore will respectfully agree to disagree with you.

[TBone]

Actually, you've got a 12% chance to hit your set on the flop. (4% for each card, 3 cards to the flop, add em up, you get 12)

Nonetheless, odds aren't fantastic that you'll hit your set.

Let's say that approximately 90% of the time, you're going to lose playing a lowish (6's and under--could probably throw 7's and maybe 8's in there as well) pocket pair, unless you can put a move on the other players in the hand. (including straights, flushes, higher sets, etc. as well as you hitting straight, getting boats, 2 pair, etc.) I think that's a safe and probably relatively close approximation. Now, are you gaining more than 9 bets for each winning pocket pair hand, than you are for each losing pocket pair hand? You basically need everyone at the table to be in the hand to make this a profitable play?

Feel free to flame, but it seems to me that mathematically playing any pocket pair--especially in early and middle position doesn't add up mathematically to helping you win? I'd love to hear someone shoot me down on this as I'm really just an idiot that now ponders mathematics of poker hands while sleeping. (thanks rharless)

And while we're on the subject of pocket pairs--I've seen books mention raising in middle and later positions with lower pocket pairs. (down to say, 7's or 8's) Since I've only been playing a few months, I've seen 7's and 8's get cracked a lot, regardless of position. Why would I want to raise medium pocket pairs in late position when all callers before me are only going to call my raise, and it's likely going to cost me 2 bets instead of 1 (unless I'm in the 12% where I flop my set) to watch it get cracked by pair of Q, K, or Aces? I would think the opposite should be applied--raise those in earlier position to hopefully knock out more opponents and give your medium pocket pair a chance to live a little longer?

Thanks all--very informative forum.

MajorKong--rharless told me to tell you hi. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

T

[oddjob]

i don't get it. you post your starting hand requirements, and ask for opinions, then you completely disregard what dynasty has responded. it seems to me like you feel like he's picking on you or treating you like a lesser, which i didn't get that feeling at all.

be it a simple answer or long winded, i've always found his straight forward, no bullshit responses to be very helpful, and key to me improving my game.

i have read many posts where he plays low limit as well as mid limit.

i also believe that you have a 11% chance of hitting your set on the flop. there is also value in having a made hand, where others must still hit their hand to have something to show down. you also have to look at the implied odds you are getting if you do hit your set.

i think if you are doing well with your system, that is great, but you may also be missing out on a lot of winning hands, by playing so tight.

it is often true that in colorado, there are many bad players that range from loose-passive to loose aggressive, who will not pay attention enough to figure out that there is a range of hands that you will only play, but there are players that keep mental notes on your play, and know the range of hands in which you will play, and from what position

key to being a good player, is being able to adjust your game, and i feel that a major part of adjusting your game is adjusting your starting hand requirements.

there are a lot of players in colorado that hate playing with rocks, because they're so tight. i like it, because i know when they're in a hand it means they are playing x cards, or their raise means so and so. they play very formulaic. it is the tricky players that i don't want at my table. the ones i have a difficult time putting on hands.

personally i feel with the amount of bad players at the colorado tables these days, i have been able to loosen up my starting hand requirements, because i am fairly certain i can outplay them after the flop. this may not always be the case, but it has been as of late.

don't take it so personally when someone gives you constructive criticism when you asked for it. if i did that i'd still be losing my ass at the table, and i'll be the first to admit that i still have a long long way to go.

good luck.