checking the nuts twice

[mike l.]

i have 64s in the bb in a good 5 handed so calif live 20-40 middle of the night game. decent player raises utg, generally weak semi-loose player cold calls, button and sb fold, i call.

the flop is J73 none of my suit rainbow. checked around.

the turn is 5 rainbow. checked around again.

the river is K. i check.

comments?

[Clarkmeister]

I hate the turn check, I love the river check.

The turn bet is essential because you should be betting in these situations (big pot with no interest shown in a raggy flop) with all sorts of stuff, so you better be betting with the goods as well.

[Michael Davis]

I think the pot is big enough that you should come out betting on the flop. Lots of good things can happen.

[mike l.]

"so you better be betting with the goods as well."

the way i saw it was this was too much of "the goods" and given the shorthandedness and lack of interest in the flop after preflop raising i felt risking having it folded to a turn bet was too much a possible waste of the nuts. if i held one pair i wouldnt have hesitated to bet the turn and usually the flop as well.

[mike l.]

"I think the pot is big enough that you should come out betting on the flop. Lots of good things can happen."

no they cant. i know this play and i use it a lot. in fact ive overused it so much that now when i use it good players like utg correctly raise with overcards, flat call with good pairs so they can raise the turn, etc, etc. so now when i bet out on the flop i usually DO have something very good and it's to trick them into thinking i dont. at this particular moment a bet by me on the flop wouldve been met with nothing but contempt and i wouldve just cost myself a lot to draw to a gutshot.

[Rick Nebiolo]

mike,

The call BTF is close IMO. The combo of decent raiser and loose cold caller is worse than decent limper and decent raiser. You need wins on your pairs, and with this combo you won't get many. Note that you would much rather be head up with decent player, despite the "implied odds type hand".

Did you consider betting on the flop? This assumes you have a "uber tight" image of course. I think it is close, depending on what kind of rythm you are in compared to your opponents mostly.

The turn check has to be right. If they didn't bet the flop they are either huge or completely wiffed. In both cases checking is better since they are likely to bet now in the first case and more likely in the second (i.e. a five isn't likely to make them and now they try to bluff).

On the river I really like the check and wonder if I could make it seated at the table. This card just screams bet by UTG. I'll be amazed if you didn't get in a checkraise here. And if you didn't, you weren't going to get paid off anyway to a bet.

~ Rick

[Philuva]

mike l.

Your two posts seem to contradict themselves. You say if you bet the flop, people will call and/or raise you. Now after you checked the flop, you say if you bet the turn, you're afraid everyone will fold. These 2 statements seem to go against each other.

I think Clarkmeister is exactly right in his post above. Given the situation, you should be betting the turn
(given the action so far and your position) most of the time regardless of what you have, specially when you have the nuts.

A river check-raise here will look very fishy, so I think you will get paid off on it, so I do like that play on the river, but I am not too sure anyone is going to bet.

[Tommy Angelo]

"a good 5 handed so calif live 20-40 middle of the night game."

Ever wonder why shorthanded games are so good? I'll tell you why. Exactly why. It's the blind structure of limit hold'em. It's like taking two live cats and tying them together by their tails and then hanging them by the knot until they eat each other's faces off.

"i have 64s in the bb ... player raises ... i call."

Translation: I drove all the way over so I could take my higher cards against your lower cards and walk out of here with your cash. Oh, nevermind. I changed my mind. Let's call the whole event a tie, minus whatever the house gets.



Tommy

[EasyGoer]

With the exception of the flop check I don't like the way this was played at all.

You call a raise with a crummy hand, then by some miracle you actually make your hand on the turn and you check? Then you check again on the River?

What was the purpose of playing this hand if you weren't going to bet it even after you made your hand?

[Noo Yawk]

Pre-flop: Calling small cards, even in the blinds in a shorthanded game is not something I'm at all in favor of.

Turn: Check if you believe UTG is now going to take a stab at the pot. Bet, if you believe he'll play back at you.

River: This is why I hate the pre-flop call. You hit that impossible hand, and make squat with it. The check on the river when a big card hits, especially in a shorthanded game, seems like the best play to me. You probably got a bit of action on the river. If everyone checked behind you, you weren't getting any action anyway.