SSH Question: Dealing w/ marginal hands on the flop

[ZeusXIX]

An example given on p. 118 about marginal holdings on the flop has me wondering what you should do w/ your hand. Basically, you hold AcJd and the flop is JcTs8s. Assuming you are 5 handed and in MP on the flop, with two players behind left to act. Also, I do not have a read on the table yet. What do you do against an early position bet? When it is checked to you? Thanks for any advice as I plod through this text.

ZeusXIX

[krimson]

Size of the pot is important here.

I would always bet if checked to. I would probably raise someone betting infront of me, unless the pot is so big that the raise is useless, then I would smooth call and evaluate the turn.

[mowz]

[ QUOTE ]
Size of the pot is important here.

I would always bet if checked to. I would probably raise someone betting infront of me, unless the pot is so big that the raise is useless, then I would smooth call and evaluate the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ghostface]

Well lets assume that you raised preflop and got 4 callers. There are 10sb in the pot. If the first player bets and gets a call then there are 12sb in the pot when it gets to you. By raising now on this crappy board you give the two guys after you 14:2 or 7:1 to call with their draws or whatever they hold. Too good a price for them to generally make an incorrect call. Also you risk a reraise from someone with the nut flush draw, pair + flush draw, 9 + flush draw, etc. If you just call and wait for the turn there will be 8.5 bb in the pot and if the same guy bets and gets another call there will be 10.5 bb in the pot when it gets to you.

Assuming you got a safe card on the turn you can raise now since you have a bigger equity edge against a 9 or a flush draw. Raising the flop or raising the turn here are neither really great plays to thin the field. Since you cannot thin the field on the flop or the turn really, your raise will be for value. To get the most value you wait to raise until you feel that you have the BIGGEST equity edge. This will happen on the turn where, if you are ahead, you are going to win much more than 20-25% of the time.

Ideally you would like one or two of your opponents to fold on the flop so the pot will be a little smaller on the turn. Now when you raise you may only give the players behind you 5:1 so that they are incorrect to call with anything but a flush draw or a 9.

This is a tough hand to draw a distinct line on where to raise because you may already be behind and drawing slim. It's hard for me to give advice on what to do against a turn 3-bet from the original bettor. Since its hard to advise what to do in this situation, some might say that its best to just raise the flop when getting reraised will be less expensive. This cant be right because, to me, that is the fear-the-worst mentality that plagues weak-tight players that SSH was written for.

Anyway I think this a good example of a wait for the turn to raise hand.

Edit: A 10sb pot is not big enough to be a gigantic pot which is why it is so tough to call what do to here. If someone had 3-bet preflop and the pot was 15sb instead it would be a lot more clear what to do here. Against fewer opponents I would raise the flop with the same pot size and against 4 or more I would try to raise a favorable turn.

[TomBrooks]

Against a bet, I will just call because the board is so drawish. With a turn blank, I will usually raise if the same person bets.

If checked to me though, I think a bet is better than no bet.