gosh i just love top pair, don't you?

[mgsimpleton]

ok so here it is. i didn't think this hand was that interesting until HEK's post about his bluff and i read those responses. so i'd love to get people's opinions on this hand here.

my image is i had been playing fairly tight early on as my cards have been crap... but the last orbit i have raised i think 3 hands preflop. i just pulled a huge squeeze knowing the person leading had crap and the second guy had top pair, i put in a reraise with a draw and took it down. i don't know how, if at all, that affects this hand.

SB in this hand loves to bluff if he thinks no one has interest in the pot. MP is passive but has looked me up with pretty marginal hands in the past... so on to the hand...

we're playing 7 handed. SB has 2k, MP 1600 and i cover.

MP limps, I raise in CO to 80 with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

flop (260): J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

checked around.

turn (260): 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB bets 175, MP calls, i make it 475. MP calls.

river (1385): A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

MP checks, I move in.

[CamelZoo]

short of a flopped boat or 5 i can't think of anything that would look you up here. maybe a stubborn AJ? AK got out a long time ago with that action.

nh.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

I don't like your line at all. On the turn this bluff is too obvious-you're the pfr and you checked the flop and raised the turn. What are you representing? It's too easy to put you on high cards.
Then the river comes and a high card hits, so I think villain will be very likely to believe that card hit you and hence only call if he has a better hand.
Unless you think he'll assume you know all this and try bluffing the ace, this move is guaranteed to be bad. Even then, he might not have the balls to make some slim call w/99, TT, or JQ.
Obviously, I'm assuming this whole post that the river gives you a winner, in which case I think you're blowing him off his hand. If it doesn't, then I can't see him folding anything better than TPGK anyway so your bet is still bad.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
short of a flopped boat or 5 i can't think of anything that would look you up here. maybe a stubborn AJ? AK got out a long time ago with that action.

nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it-you don't think she'll get looked up? Then what's the purpose of the bet if villain has a worse hand and won't call? Just check behind in that case.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
short of a flopped boat or 5 i can't think of anything that would look you up here. maybe a stubborn AJ? AK got out a long time ago with that action.

nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it-you don't think she'll get looked up? Then what's the purpose of the bet if villain has a worse hand and won't call? Just check behind in that case.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this is exactly the point, right? We're hoping villain thinks "if she just hit the ace on the river, she would check behind and hope to beat my jack. but she is pushing. she must have KQ! I call."

[mgsimpleton]

yeah camelzoo's post makes no sense... this is a value bet.

oso foxwoodsfiend you have just pretty much covered every argument against making this bet.

i guess what it comes down to is how often i had been raising preflop this orbit, and that i am in the CO. i dont know if this guy has notes on me but all the regulars know how liberally i raise in late position preflop and how capable i am of big bluffs.

on the turn, i just felt MP was weak and i was almost sure SB had jack sh*t... i think MP raises if his hand is worth anything on the turn so i tried to take it down. would i slowplay flops with overpairs or a set? usually not but sometimes yes and this would have been the flop to do it. ok but then he calls i guess it is obvious he doesn't believe me and has some sort of made hand.

river comes an A and he checks. i was pretty sure i was good here as i put him on a jack or a pocket pair... so given that, and given how liberally i raise preflop and how often i bluff, isn't it worth it to push? i'd likeit much better if river were a different suit, but dont you think it is leaving money on the table for someone who likes to make loose calls vs me in general to check behind?

[Big_Jim]

Considering reads, turn raise looks decent. You'll get lots of folds. SB is FOS a lot of the time and MP probably doesn't have enough to call here a large percentage of the time. Also, this is a pretty slow-playable board if you flopped a set.

I figure that your river bet is for value, but I am just not sure what hands can look you up here that you're ahead of.

Considering the read of villian, I think any A looks you up.... but I'm not sure how any A other than AJ or A3 got to river like this.

If you were drawing, on turn, every draw just hit the river. I would like your line better if river were non-diamond.

Would villian look you up here with a J? Underpair? Could he have played QQ-KK this passive? If the answers to these are yes, I think it's alright, but I doubt there are many players who fit this description.

I check behind.

[xorbie]

I think the turn is only slightly bad (i.e. very little FE but I could play AA this way so it's ok?) just because the flop is so drawless, but the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on this river means that this guy would really need to have look up syndrome to call this river.

[Big_Jim]

I'm glad that my post has the same timestamp as duck's, so it doesn't look like I just copied what she said.

[mgsimpleton]

[ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is exactly the point, right? We're hoping villain thinks "if she just hit the ace on the river, she would check behind and hope to beat my jack. but she is pushing. she must have KQ or 67s or 9Ts or 44 or ... ! I call."

[/ QUOTE ]

right, yeah that was the point.