Merits of MinRaising

Mercman572 · #1 11-09-2005, 05:41 PM

This is controversial and I don't know how I feel about it myself. Hopefully it generates some really good discussion.

We have always discussed why minraising is bad in many situations; it allows draws to correctly call, misses out on value when we're best, can be "obvious," and often has little to no fold equity when we are behind. However, many PR players frequently min-reraise and at first I was at a loss of what to do. This got me thinking that in certain situations by taking game theory into account it has potential to be an effective play.

The situation I am referring to is HU, in position. Most times this will be a board without significant draws. The key to this would be a thinking player capable of folding, and selecting the correct frequency. For instance, a player in EP raises a standard 4BB and you call with whatever. The flop comes 8 high. As the player is prone to do, he makes a PSB, you minraise him. Continuation bets with missed overs basically have to fold, and its cheaper than a PSR if he does in fact have a solid hand better than yours. The key for this to work is that it is a PSB, and you will do this with a piece of the board as well, so that the opponent cannot possibly know when reraising is correct. Also, with solid hands you build a pot when called. If he calls and checkfolds to a turn raise, he most likely would have slowed down anyway when flat called.

How is this different than flat calling with a good hand, or flatcalling with intentions to take away on the turn? Well it can be much more flustering, and as a result the opponent may C-bet with too little frequency as a result and make his flop play more obvious, and he is much less likely to fire again on the turn with missed overs than if we had cold called so we more easily know where we are at. Or, the opponent may get angry and 3 bet when you have a legitimate hand a mistakenly play a large pot OOP. A flat call still takes the EP player out of the drivers seat.

I wouldn't mind having this immediately disputed since I haven't got a chance to implement it myself, but have fallen victim in bad sessions to the minraise and noticed when it seems to be harder to counter. Thoughts? And with explanation, and (optimally) ev calculations.

amoeba · #2 11-09-2005, 05:43 PM

very well thought out post.

I always thought this board had a little too much hate for the minraise.

there is a time for everything.

I'll look in to the details in a bit and come up with a better response.

FlyingStart · #3 11-09-2005, 05:48 PM

I actually like the minraise often. As you say it's a cheap way to find out if he has overs, and to an overpair minraises looks really scary since it may look like you are trying to build the pot with a set (against a thinking player who doesn't know you are a thinking player)

kongo_totte · #4 11-09-2005, 05:53 PM

Against semi-weak decent but not good players, I use it to find out where I am at, as was suggested in OP.
I might re-raise very strong hands against donks, who won't realize they will be committed if they call the min.raise. This is mostly done on the turn, when I have a very strong hand that is not afraid of draws. I.e. a full house or better.

4_2_it · #5 11-09-2005, 05:54 PM

Minraises work great against 2+2ers. The turn min-check raise will put many in tears. To everything there is a season.

beset7 · #6 11-09-2005, 05:57 PM

i've minraised maybe 6 times over the last 40k hands and I don't think i'm missing out on much. nice post tho.

xorbie · #7 11-09-2005, 05:58 PM

Like betting very small with relation to the pot, there is a time and a place for a minraise. A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on a 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] board is probably not that time.

Mercman572 · #8 11-09-2005, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Like betting very small with relation to the pot, there is a time and a place for a minraise. A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on a 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] board is probably not that time.

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously

EDIT: What about the times mentioned where it may possibly be correct

Hoopster81 · #9 11-09-2005, 06:17 PM

3 criteria must be met for me to use the min-raise:

1. The pot is heads-up

2. I am in position

3. I have a hand no better than TPGK and villain bets into me on flop&turn, in which case I will often min-raise the turn for the cheap showdown.

Mercman572 · #10 11-09-2005, 06:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i've minraised maybe 6 times over the last 40k hands and I don't think i'm missing out on much. nice post tho.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you prefer the cold call despite possible advantages of minraising instead as mentioned?