Stud8 - Early street play

[Aaron W.]

I was recently reading "Poker Essays" and one of the articles talked about the differences between stud and hold'em. I believe that the article was talking about Stud-High. In particular, one of the points was luck comes early in hold'em and late in stud. Almost as a corollary to this, it also asserted that you can beat stud by playing well on the early streets and just average after that, which is different from hold'em, where postflop play is essential to be a winning player.

Do these two statements still apply to Stud8? If so, the implication seems to be that you should not jam hands on the early streets unless you have a significant advantage to exploit (this bloats the pot and makes it more correct for players to chase you down on later streets). Is this a correct conclusion?

Are there any good ways of estimating your edge on the early streets?

[lane mcbride]

I tend to push my edges as much as possible. it depends on your holdings and your position.

if somebody bets, 3 people to the left of him call and I'm next to act on fourth street with 2345 I'm going to raise it almost every time.

same with a hand like a246 suited or the like.

Another time I think a raise is mandatory is on fifth if you have made your low, and nobody else has a possible low. Sure, they could end up improving and beating your low, but in that spot you need to push your edge as much as possible.

Personally, I will push the smallest of edges if I think they are there. Not only does it make mathematical sense, but I get seen as overly aggressive and I often get called down with my better hands.

An example especially on third street... if the only time you raised your ace door card on third street was when you had split aces, it would be easy to read you, and you wouldn't get a lot of value out of it. However if you'll come in raising with a hand like 35(a) etc. you'll get a lot more value out of both hands.

It is especially essential to raise hands that have a good potential to scoop and have lots of equity.

[AlanBostick]

The statement in Poker Essays applies just as well to stud/8 as high-only stud, with the understanding that good play on early streets in stud/8 is qualitatively different than for stud high.

Luck comes "early" in stud/8 because if you don't catch good on fourth street you usually should fold, and most of your long-term edge in a typical game comes from making significantly better fourth-street play-or-fold decisions than the opposition.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
if somebody bets, 3 people to the left of him call and I'm next to act on fourth street with 2345 I'm going to raise it almost every time.

same with a hand like a246 suited or the like.

Another time I think a raise is mandatory is on fifth if you have made your low, and nobody else has a possible low. Sure, they could end up improving and beating your low, but in that spot you need to push your edge as much as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are all examples of very LARGE edges. Wheel draws and low flush draws after 4 are very powerful hands. And a made low against high hands is another obvious case. I'm really thinking about hands that are closer to neutral against your opponent's probable holdings.

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I will push the smallest of edges if I think they are there. Not only does it make mathematical sense, but I get seen as overly aggressive and I often get called down with my better hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it make mathematical sense to bloat a pot when you have only a minor edge? This makes your opponents' mistakes smaller on the later "luck" streets because it's more correct for them to chase you down.

My background is in hold'em, where you only get four streets of betting, two big and two small. I would push smaller edges in hold'em on the cheap streets because I know I can make up for mistakes (when I turn out to be a small dog instead of a small favorite) on the later streets with skill.

In stud, you get five streets, three big and two small. But if skill is diminished in the expensive streets, I would think that you tend to lose whatever edge you had on the cheap early streets under the larger bets and larger luck, and so it would be better to wait until you have a large lead (larger than a very minor edge) before throwing lots of money at the pot. (I'm really thinking of this as a principle for players who are still developing. Obviously, if you're very good on all streets, you can push early edges and use your much better play on later streets to offset more of the luck.)

[lane mcbride]

an edge is an edge... I push it. sure you are bloating the pot, but the alternative is a free card which gives them the right odds to draw to their hand any time (infinite pot odds) It makes for much greater variability, but more profit in the end.
Also, like I said, it makes you tougher to read. your opponents won't know whether you have a 55-45 edge or a 95-5 edge because you'll be aggressive with both of them. Having your opponents pay you off the same in both situations is, in my opinion, priceless.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
an edge is an edge... I push it. sure you are bloating the pot, but the alternative is a free card which gives them the right odds to draw to their hand any time (infinite pot odds) It makes for much greater variability, but more profit in the end.
Also, like I said, it makes you tougher to read. your opponents won't know whether you have a 55-45 edge or a 95-5 edge because you'll be aggressive with both of them. Having your opponents pay you off the same in both situations is, in my opinion, priceless.

[/ QUOTE ]

But pushing a small edge now can lead to villains playing correctly on later streets. This comes up in hold'em quite a bit. Raising a hand like ATo in late position is fine for a short-handed pot, but in a multiway pot, even though you have an immediate edge, you encourage everyone else to play correctly on later streets. Your immediate edge is small and by pushing it, you pass on a larger (potential) future edge. The reason that this works against you in hold'em is that players will often play the later streets the same REGARDLESS of the pot size. When this is the case, you gain more by waiting for a more substantial edge to arise on a later street.

Is this concept somehow negated in stud? Are players generally more aware of the pot size in this game compared to hold'em?

[ctj]

[ QUOTE ]
an edge is an edge... I push it. sure you are bloating the pot, but the alternative is a free card which gives them the right odds to draw to their hand any time (infinite pot odds) It makes for much greater variability, but more profit in the end.
Also, like I said, it makes you tougher to read. your opponents won't know whether you have a 55-45 edge or a 95-5 edge because you'll be aggressive with both of them. Having your opponents pay you off the same in both situations is, in my opinion, priceless.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your edge is only for 1/2 the pot, you need a 2-1 edge over your competitior for that direction (ignoring metagame considerations) for 'pushing your edge' to be +EV. Without some high chances, it's hard to have that big of an edge with a low hand on 3rd or 4th.

If you push a 55-45 edge for low, say 7632 vs 8643, you are giving EV to the high hand.