Playing against the 800lb Gorilla (long)

[DaNoob]

Played in the $2 NLHE Stars tourney last night (over 330 people signed up) and found myself sitting 2 seats to the left of a very aggressive player with a huge stack.

When I sat down at the table, BG (Big Gorilla) had about T7000. Average stack size at that time was ~T2000. As I watched, he raised about 80% of his hands PF (often in EP with crap like K9o), called 15% PF (including 79o in EP), and folded 1/20 times. Through a combination of luck and serious aggression, he increased his stack to T20k while I was at the table, and was bullying the rest of us very effectively. Stealing the blinds became a non-option for me, as BG was 2 to my left. Bluffing and semi-steals didn't work either, as he seemed willing to call almost any bet. So, my question revolves around what the best strategy for playing these types of players is. To help, I'm listing the hands I played against him (since almost all of my remaining hands in the tourney were against him, including the one that knocked me out) for critique. Please feel free to slam the plays, etc. I need to learn how to handle aggressive players like this much better than I currently do.

Hand#1
Blinds 50/100. I have T2500. I get dealt A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] in BB. BG calls, folded to me, I check. Flop comes 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] s [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] . I check, BG bets 500 (on 250 pot), I muck.

Hand#2
Blinds 50/100 - T2570. I get Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] UTG and raise to 300. BG raises to 500, folded to me, I raise all-in. He mucks.

Hand#3
Blinds 75/150 - T3120. I get 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] in the BB. 3 callers to me (including BG) and I check. Flop comes 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] . I bet 750, BG raises to 1500, I raise all-in. He mucks.

Hand#4
Blinds 75/150 - T4900. I get 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] UTG and call. BG raises 150, folded to me, I call. Flop comes 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . I bet out 300, BG raises 300, I call. Turn A [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] . I check, he bets 400. I muck.

Hand#5
Blinds 100/200 - T3900. I get 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] in SB and complete with BB and BG to the flop. Flop comes 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] . 2 checks, BG bets 200, we both muck.

Hand#6
Blinds 100/200 - T3300. I'm frustrated and it's showing. I get dealt A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] on the button. Folded to me, I go all-in, SB and BG fold.

Hand#7
Blinds 100/200 - T3645. I get A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 5h in BB. BG raises from UTG+1 to 400, I am only caller. Flop comes K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] . We both check. Turn K [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] . I bet 400, he raises 400. I muck.

Hand#8
Blinds 150/300 - T2670. I get A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] in UTG and limp, BG calls, and BB checks. Flop comes A [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] . Check x 3. Turn is Q [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . Check x3. River is Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] . I bet 1000 and both muck.

Hand#9
Blinds 200/400 ante 25, T4000. I get A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] in the BB. BG calls, I check. Flop comes A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . BG bets 1200, I raise all-in, he mucks.

Hand#10
Next hand, with T6000, I find myself with Q [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] in the SB. 2 callers to me, including BG. I raise all-in and only he calls. Turns over K [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] . K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] falls on the Turn and I'm out 77th out of 333.

I know I could have played some of these hands better, and my general impression was that I was poorly equipped to handle the gorilla at my table. I wonder if I was overly aggressive when I had good cards, and not aggressive enough when I didn't. So, any and all feedback is greatly appreciated.
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As a side note, I ended up sitting at tables with Fnurt and JayKon, but wasn't sure how kosher it is to mention 2+2 in the middle of a tourney, so I kept my mouth shut.

[fnurt]

If you were sitting with me in the $2 tourney I wasn't even paying attention, I had joined because I thought I was about to bust out of the $30 PL tourney but somehow it kept dragging on... (I finished 3rd) Incidentally I finished in the top 30% of the $2 tourney by folding every single hand so there's a lesson here.

As for the hands you posted, it seems like you won plenty of confrontations with this guy, so I'm not sure what the problem is. If he bets several hundred, you raise all-in, and he folds, you shouldn't be upset just because you couldn't get him to go all-in with his presumed crap hand.

I don't understand what was going on in hand #8 but otherwise I think you played well. There were a few times (like #7) you may have been bluffed off a hand but I think you had the right idea in folding. If a guy is super-aggressive and is going to donate chips to you every time you make a hand, which seems to be the case, why get involved in a huge pot with him when you have something very marginal?

Even the hand he beat you on was one where you were way ahead. I totally wouldn't worry about the way you played against this guy.

[eMarkM]

1) Maybe raise here and lead out would get him to fold. You showed no stregth here, so he had no reason to believe he was not ahead. I think you let him run over you here.

4) I don't like the limp here, not this late in the tourney. You just don't get multiway pots in an NL tourney enough to justify flopping a set (ok, maybe you do in a $2 event). I either raise here or muck. Usually muck with a pair this small in EP. If I raise, I just want to take out the blinds without a confrontation. I just don't like to limp in this situation and face a raise which isolates me, then all overcards come on the flop. Once the flop comes, I probably would have re-raised all-in. Since he's playing everything, he likely does not have a bigger pair than you.

7) Don't like the call. A-little is too much an underdog to too many hands, even if this is Mr aggressive we're talking about. Either re-raise all-in--which he's backed down to before--or muck.

8) Muck. Don't limp late in tourneys with trash like this. You're hard pressed to call a raise here as you could easily be dominated and chasing a flush in NL is usually a no-no.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

#1 - Why did you check preflop? You have a premium hand, and he limps with practically everything. Raise T200-300 more, and bet that flop. If he's willing to raise you after that, then make your decision.

#2,3 - fine

#4 - You bet out, he raises minimum. Either reraise all-in again (and most likely watch him fold), or fold. There is no safe turn card other than a 2 or 3 with this guy, so if your 44 is ahead now, it is a solid favorite, and you should be glad to either get him all-in with 6 outs twice, or get him to fold those 6 outs. You lost the maximum with the best hand here, I think.

#5 - fine

#6 - Way too big a raise. You're guaranteed to get a call from AK, and from most (all) pocket pairs, but not much if anything else. Raise the pot, T600 or so, and play from there.

#7 - Again, why did you fold? He raised the minimum, and has folded in the past after doing that, when you followed up with an all-in. You have A high on a board where it is quite likely to make you the favorite against this guy. He likely has 6 outs once, and you gave him the pot for a minimum raise. If you're going to fold to this reraise, then your bet was a mistake. I would be glad to get all my chips in here against this player, and more glad if he folded to my reraise instead.

#8, 9, 10 - all just fine, with some bad luck on the end. See how he folded when you went all-in? This guy has demonstrated a strong tendency to give up whenever it becomes impossible for him to bluff you out (because you're already all-in). The only exception was when he called with KQ, a big mistake on his part, as he was either slightly behind a pair, or well behind AA-QQ or AK. I don't think you'd have made that move with anything less.

Players like this win because many of their opponents are afraid of going broke. And it is a strong strategy. Many of the well-known tournament players succeed for just this reason. They have no fear, and once they get a big stack, their opponents are afraid of them, and back down instead of taking them on. The main problem these guys have is playing well when they don't have a big stack, as they're still trying to bully people, even though they should know that tactic won't work at that time.

Wait for a spot where you're edge is likely high enough (e.g., 3:2 or better), and then don't be afraid to risk elimination. Let this person double you up when you have AQ and they have J8, or let them fold when you make the third raise all-in. Don't back down unless their random hand is really not that far behind anyway.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[DaNoob]

Thanks for your comments and congrats on the 3rd place finish. You were sitting out the whole time you were at my table, so your assumption was correct.

As for hand#8, I was hoping to induce some kind of bluff along the way with my 2 pair, but nobody wanted a piece of me. In fact, I'm lucky I didn't get nailed by a 3rd Q when the 2nd fell on the River.

Anyway, hopefully I'll run into you on the tables one of these days when you are actually playing.

[eMarkM]

Greg, what is your feeling on limping in EP with hands like 44 and A5s well into a tourney as DaNoob did here. I'm still very new to the tourney scene so maybe I should be doing this more, but I usually avoid this since you rarely get the callers you need to flop something big. In fact, I almost never flat call anything outside the blinds after the first few rounds. A raise here often can take down the blinds, which you would be happy with, and you can lay down to a big re-raise.

[fnurt]

I'm not Greg but personally I think a minimum raise is superior to limping in all cases. If the reason that you limp is because there's not much raising going on and you think you can see a flop cheaply, raise a little bit extra and give yourself the chance to win pre-flop.

If the table is active and you think you're likely to get played back at if you raise from EP, then unless your hand is good enough to justify a real raise you should just muck it. The odds of this being the 1 hand out of 10 where everyone lets you get away with limping, AND you happen to catch the flop, are too slim. Most of the time you'll just be throwing away money.

[DaNoob]

Greg,

Awesome advice as usual. I had a feeling that I was letting this guy push me around too much, but was afraid of getting busted out if he called me and actually had something. He had called a lot of all-ins from other folks and busted them out (hence the 20k stack), and I was afraid of busting out on a marginal hand vs. a guy who was almost impossible to get a read on. Overcoming this fear is going to help my game out a lot.

Speaking of which, is there a good way to do this or does it vary person-by-person?

[Copernicus]

The way to overcome it is to not play with scared money. You're going to win more than your share of battles with BG, but he is going to bust you out now and then, and if its money you need (for the next tourney, for the rent whatever) those losses are going to chip away at your confidence.

After he does beat you, suck it up, and look for him again.

[DaNoob]

I'm not playing with money that I need for rent or car payments. But, the fear of being knocked out of the tourney and not able to win the big prize is what compels me to play like a wussy. That's what I need to focus on. The buy-in for this tourney was only $2, so no biggie, but 1st prize offered $300+, which is a nice chunk of cash. Given the fact that I needed a lot of chips to get to the final table, maybe I should have rammed and jammed more against this dude.

Regardless, thanks a bunch for the advice.