Question on advice from Rebuen/Ciaffone's book

[7n7]

I just started reading Reuben/Ciaffone's <u>PL and NL Poker</u> and wanted to post an informal poll.

From page 17:

"Akin to this idea is the situation where you have raised the flop and have many callers. Suppose you have 2 aces, and after the flop hits, the 1st player leads through you with a medimum-sized bet. Even though you think those aces are still the best hand, it would be dangerous, and probably incorrect, for you to raise with the whole field yet to be heard from."

Assume no-one is short-stacked.

How many of you flat-call here?

How many of you would raise in order to acquire some information?

[7n7]

Anybody?

[Wayfare]

It is entirely dependent on what the flop is, how deep the money is, and who the opponents are. Ciaffone is talking about rational players. That is a big assumption.

The answer is, as it usually is, it depends.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
How many of you would raise in order to acquire some information?




[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I would raise here but for sure not to "acquire some information".

[john kane]

i raise almost certainly.

why wait to hear from the whole field when you can ask them a much more probing question - are they willing to call a medium size bet and a big raise than just simply call a medium size bet. a call is a disasterous. if you call and someone raises, you likely fold. if you call and everyone else calls/folds, then you will be seeing a turn card with no idea what your opponents could be holding.

by raising you establish whether the rest of the field have a decent hand/draw by whether they call. you could argue you are doing so by merely calling and seeing if they will raise, in which case you are may well be beat, but i think far more often by calling you will be giving the odds to a number of players to just call and hit the turn card and beat you, rather than not giving them the odds by raising.

you want to isolate the first position bettor, as he very unlikely has your overpair beat considering if he did he is unlikely to lead out in a multiway pot first to act.

calling is foolish play.

i have read the book a couple of times, and while the advice is very good, this play i do not like at all.

[7n7]

Thanks! That was my answer as well. Raise for info. and to isolate.

I know that Ciaffone is known for being tight but I'm just not comfortable with a call here. I do agree with the other poster that stack size is important, but I'd still raise even if we were very deep.

If I got popped back, then I'd have another decision to make.

[Post-Oak]

I agree with the posters that say this is dependent.

That being said, in most online games, and sticking with the big assumption that we are against rational players; if you raise here you already have decided to play for your stack. There is no getting away after a raise, unless you and the villain are both very deep stacked, which is rare in capped online games.

Look at it this way... You raised preflop and got "many" callers. The pot is now already a pretty big pot BEFORE the flop. So a medium bet here will be somewhat substantial compared to the big blind. So I like his idea of a flat call, so that you don't have to commit your stack yet. If someone is on a draw behind you, well they are going to call anyway unless you come with a reraise all-in.

This is why it sucks when you raise with aces and get a bunch of callers. The pot is already big and your overpair is hard to get away from. Anyone who you get it all-in with on the flop is usually going to either have you beat or have a very big draw.

So yes, it depends on many things (including the texture of the flop), but in many games you will be committing too much if you raise this lead bettor. Usually a player who comes out betting into a large field in this kind of hand either wants to play for his stack, or is probing with his weaker underpair. Either way you don't want to raise.

Yes, it does suck that there are players waiting to act behind you...

[creedofhubris]

Partly it depends on the size of the initial bet. If the initial bet is pot-sized, then a raise is going to commit you, and you need to consisder whether or not you want to play for your stack.

If the initial bet is 1/4 pot, then the raise is a no-brainer.

[Lucky]

I call. Say its NL 5/10 full game. Effective stacks 1000

One limper, you make it 45, four callers, limper calls. 270 in pot. Limper leads flop for 200. If you raise, your pot committed. More importantly, you can get bushwacked by everyone waiting behind you. They now cant make a mistake, and you stand to get lose your whole stack if anyone behind you calls.

[kagame]

usually the first bettor will have a draw or tp, and the second other player to enter the pot will have you beat