Big Slick suited

[slim]

5/10 live....I open raise with AK spades, all fold to button who cold calls, blinds fold so it's HU.
Flop is 2 spades and 10 high. I bet, button raises, I reraise, button calls.
Turn is no help to me and less than 10, I bet, button calls.
River is another brick less than 10, I bet again and button calls and wins with JJ.

Should I have 3 bet the flop? Should I have bet the river? Is my opponent a fish for calling me down after I 3 bet the flop?

Thanks....

[travisand]

I don't think it is a bad idea at all to 3 bet the flop if you think he will lay down overcards to a turn bet. Even if he won't I don't think it is that bad.


I don't think that I would have bet the river or called the river if he bet unless he likes to bluff a lot. After you have showed that much aggression and he still has not laid down I don't see much point in betting.

And no I don't think your opponent is a fish for calling you down. I would have a very hard time laying down an overpair to the board especially if there was no flush possible.

[Homer]

You would think at 5/10 the players would be better than at the micro-limits, but they are not. They will coldcall with bad cards and play very straightforward. When your opponent coldcalls preflop and raises on the flop, he doesn't have overcards -- he has something like JTs/QTs/KTs/ATs/JJ. He will not fold these hands to a combination flop three-bet / turn bet.

Should I have 3 bet the flop?

Three-betting the flop isn't horrible, because you have up to 15 outs (if Aces and Kings are clean), so you're about even money to surpass your opponent by the river. Also, three-betting might buy you a free card, even from out of position. Yes, I think you should check the turn if you choose to three-bet the flop. You might get a free card and you don't risk having to pay two bets to see the river.

Should I have bet the river?

Given the way you played it, I think you should have check-folded the river. It's obvious that your opponent has a hand that is better than yours that he will not lay down. If you're lucky you might get a free showdown.

Is my opponent a fish for calling me down after I 3 bet the flop?

No, I'd have a difficult time releasing an overpair, especially when there is the possibility that you are on a flush draw or are simply pushing overcards. Use the knowledge that your opponent will not fold in the future when your raise does happen to mean that you have a big pocket pair.

-- Homer

[Homer]

I would have a very hard time laying down an overpair to the board especially if there was no flush possible.

Actually, you should be more likely to lay down this hand when there is no flush possible. This is because the lack of draws on board make it more likely that your opponent is pushing an overpair.

For example, I'd have an easier time laying down JJ on a board of T72 rainbow than on a board of T72 two-tone.

-- Homer

[SoBeDude]

Hi Slim,

You're under the mistaken impression that you somehow deserved to win the hand.

He had an overpair to the board the entire hand. The only reasonable hands he was behind to were TT QQ KK and AA. There is no way any decent player will fold what is probably the best hand in a situation like this.

Be thankful he didn't raise you on the turn or river.

It is something that took me a while to learn, but pushing overcards to the river when your opponent clearly isn't going anywhere is a sure way to burn off chips.

-Scott

[CrackerZack]

Should I have 3 bet the flop? Should I have bet the river? Is my opponent a fish for calling me down after I 3 bet the flop?

Yes, maybe but I'd probably check-call. No.

When he calls on the turn he's not folding his hand unless he's on a draw, so I'd check the river, hope to get a draw to bluff and pick it off for the same price. I can't see a hand you beat calling you here so for the same price you get a shot at an extra bet.

[CrackerZack]

Homer, you've played live poker. 5-10 is basically a micro-limit with some wannabees like me trying to play well in the game. But its generally an aquarium.

I agree with your read of his cold call hands although I'd add QJs, T9s and 98s. This level is also filled with people who use the free-card raise all the time to the point of overuse. He could easily be on spades also or a straight draw if one is out there. Checking the turn is reasonable but leaves you open to being bluffed out if he'll fire both barrels... but the more I think about it, an opponent who will in live poker is VERY rare. I'd probably bet again on the turn though hoping to move him off a weak T but when he calls, i'm hoping for a free showdown.

I completely agree he should check the river but I wouldn't lay it down. like online, lots of opponents like to put you on AK when you raise pre-flop and stick to it rigidly. Something like QJ or another draw could bluff at this pot on the end according to that read. Maybe I have been playing too much online where this is rampant but I'd still pay off with nut no-pair in this case.

[DiamondDave]

If he calls (and he probably will if he has a pair), you're beaten - so check. If you're in front, he won't call - so check.

I can't think of anything he could be holding that would make him willing to raise the flop, call the turn, call you on the river, AND lose in a showdown. (Unpaired spades must be Q-high at best and will fold to your river bet.)

Since you're shown so much strength, he'll probably check if you check (fearing a check-raise). So I think check-fold is actually a better play on the river than bet-and-fold-to-a-raise (unless the guy is astute enough to put you on a draw when you check).

Three-betting the flop is good, even heads-up. If he makes it four bets on the flop or calls and then raises on the turn then he either has a set, plays two smallish pair really strongly, or he's tricky. Good things to know.

If your opponent is a fish it's because he didn't raise before the flop. He had jacks and the button, so he should have raised to make extra sure the blinds fold.

Folding would have been a terrible play for him. He had an overpair to the board, and he's probably seen dozens of aggressive opponents three-bet the flop with a big flush draw and maybe top pair, bet the turn, and fire the last barrel on the river.

[slim]

I think betting the river was stupid on my part. It was one of those "crying bets"outof disappointment for not hitting all those outs. But I still think betting the turn was ok. I've been reading TOP lately and it's always better to bet if you are going to call anyways.Also , I think by betting,if I hit my flush, myopponent would not have put me on a flush so I would have made a few extra BB's.....espeically ifthe J spades fell.

[DiamondDave]

Slim,

I like your aggression on the flop and on the turn. About the river play, don't be too hard on yourself. I learned the hard way, too.

Lou Krieger's "You Have to Know Your Opponenents" bit in Hold'Em excellence discusses this situation. There's a section on playing AK that's good, too.

You're totally right that betting the turn will cause some people to misread your hand. I A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] and flopped top pair and a four-flush the last time I played. I made the table call me on every street, another diamond fell on the river, and someone with 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] gave me lots of action. After the hand he told me that he didn't put me on a flush because I took charge of the betting.

Semi-bluffing is a must in the no fold'em game. (Think of it as betting your draws for value.) Bluffing is a horse of a different color.