Play A Hand With The Triple Threat (Results & Comments)

[grandgnu]

PRE-FLOP: There's one MP limper for 20 chips, everyone else has folded. This is the first hand of a $10+1 MTT, I don't expect a ton of great players.

I have pocket Queens and I'm in late position. You don't get these hands all that often, so I don't want to squander them and just win the blinds. But I also don't want to go up against too many opponents. Ideally, I'd like to be heads-up or against two opponents. With only one limper and the blinds left to fight through, I like my chances.

I have position and opt to raise it to 80 chips. A raise to 60 chips might get called by all three players, and a raise of 100-120 will likely scare out weaker holdings that I'd like to have go against my strong hand.

After I raise, it's folded to the limper, whom I have position on, who calls.

Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]


Flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Alright, I hit my set, that is friggin awesome. But man, is this board hella coordinated. Luckily, I'm heads-up, so I can't go seeing monsters in every closet and worrying. He checks to me.

With 210 in the pot and a strong hand, I could bet 150-200 or even overbet the pot, try and take it down now. Instead, I opt to bet just 120. This means he has to call 120 to win 330, which gives him 2.75:1 odds on his money.

If he is on a flush or straight draw, he isn't getting the odds he needs to make the call (unless you look at implied odds). In addition, I'm not worried about him just yet. I figure to be ahead the majority of the time on this flop, and my betting is an attempt to make it affordable (yet still a slight mistake) for him to play with holdings I beat (which represent the majority of cards he might have at this point).

In addition, while I'm trying to get more chips out of him with my premium holding, I also recognize I do not have the nuts and there are plenty of draws that can hurt me. And this early in such a low buy-in event, there are plenty of players willing to go to the felt on these draws. I don't want to create such a large pot that I can't get away from it.

He calls my bet and we see a turn of 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Once again, he checks. The 7 doesn't figure to have helped his hand, unless he indeed had two diamonds. With 450 in the pot, I opt to bet 200. I figure if I'm ahead, I'm probably a 3-1 favorite. My bet does give him odds to call. But, if I'm behind (if he indeed does have the flush, or was slow-playing an A/J on the flop), then I once again avoid making a pot too large to get away from.

So, after my bet there's 650 chips in the pot. He check-raises me an additional 340, bringing the total to 1,190. Well, that's a bit disconcerting, to say the least. But what does it mean? Is it a milking bet? Is it a feeler bet, an attempt to take the pot down now, perhaps with the naked Ace of diamonds? I'm not quite sure at this point.

On the flop I was 90-95% certain I was ahead of my opponent, but this turn has me worried. Still, I have to call 340 to win 1,190, so with 3.5:1 odds, I feel I have enough redraws through the river to make the call (if the board pairs, or if another diamond falls, I'll have 2nd nut flush)

I don't feel at this point I can fold the hand, I'm too strong with too many outs to just get out now, and there's too much money in the pot. Plus, I will still have position on Villian when the river hits, so I may get checked to, depending upon what falls.

I don't feel I can raise all-in, because Villian will certainly call me with any hand that has me beat, and might also call with pair and flush draw/straight draw hands, leaving me no way to get out if the river is a scare card. So, by calling, I can end the betting right there and prevent anymore raising, and still have half my starting stack through to the river, where I can make a decision.

The river is the J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and villian pushes. There is just no way I can call this bet. He just needs any Ace to have me beat, and plenty of players early in tournaments will play any ace as if it's gold. A 9 has me beat too, although that's not necessarily what I put him on, and of course the flush as well.

I opt to fold and go on to finish 97th out of 641 players, with the top 63 making the money.

He of course, did not show his hand. But I would put him on something along the lines of the following:

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

etc.

A lot of others suggested larger bets, to try and protect my hand and push the other player out. My line was that I felt I was way ahead of my opponents holding the majority of the time pre-flop and post-flop, and I wanted to try and maximize the chips he'd give me on my good hand, but also avoid building a pot so huge that I couldn't fold when obviously a small favorite to win by the river.

I treaded a bit more carefull post-flop, in an attempt to squeeze more chips out of him, but also to avoid losing my whole stack on the first hand.

Let's say I do it like some of the others suggested, pre-flop I make it 100 to go, he calls, so the pot is now 230 chips.

The scary flop hits, he checks, I make a pot-sized bet, he calls. Now there is 690 chips in the pot. The turn card hits, he checks again. Now I lead out for something like 400 chips and he check-raises me to 900.

On that turn, my hand is just too strong and I have a number of outs, and the pot is too large to get away from. So I wind up having invested 730 chips, and he's check-raised it to 900. So if I call another 500 chips, there's just no way for me to fold on the river.

In the actual hand, with his turn check-raise, I had invested 740 chips, but got to see the river without paying anything additional.

I was really spurred on to relate this hand after the Gigabet hand where he had A/K on the A/K/J flop and was up against the Q/10. Those way ahead, way behind hands can be pretty difficult, and it can be hard to get away from such a strong holding.

But, I avoided going broke and gave myself an opportunity to continue playing and try and recover, and went deep, although missed in cashing (perhaps if the outcome of that hand had been different, I would have had the momentum to make the final table, but such is poker)

Thanks to everyone for playing along and providing their thoughts and advice. I didn't mean to steal any limelight from the Hand With The Masters series, I've just been waiting to see another one come up and it hasn't, so I figured I'd fill the void for a day at least.

[TomHimself]

why dont you want to play a big pot with QQ. i think ur pf raise is fine but i would bet more on flop and turn

I agree with Tom, I have no problem getting more money in when I have the best hand, or on the turn, a hand that has a great draw. If I went all in on that turn and lost to a naked Ace of diamonds, so be it, but I got my chips in as the favorite.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
why dont you want to play a big pot with QQ. i think ur pf raise is fine but i would bet more on flop and turn

[/ QUOTE ]

While my hand is very strong on the flop, it's not a lock to win. If my opponent is on A/J (which is a reasonable assumption) I in no way can take him off the hand, and may get all my chips in when I'm behind.

If my opponent has a pair with a flush draw or straight draw, it's a $10 tourney, and plenty of these players will not respect whether they're getting proper odds to call or not. If I get all my money in with the best hand, it does not allow me to get out when cards come that threaten my strong holding.

This is the first hand of the tourney, I'm attempting to make bets that he'll call (when behind, or ahead) that don't commit me to the hand.

If he's ahead and I'm making affordable bets and doing all the betting for him, he's likely to allow me to continue doing the betting, which means I can keep the pot managable and get away if I need to, my set is NOT a lock to win.

If he's behind, he may interpet my bets for weakness/feeler bets. With a drawing hand, he'll stick around for the smaller bets and I can give myself an opportunity to win a good sized pot, and not lose my shirt if he makes his draw (since if he's on a draw, especially if he's got a pair on that flop, it's doubtful he's going to fold given the buy-in of the event).

Plus, I still have position on each round, which is advantageous. Putting all my money in before the turn or river ruins that advantage.

Did I allow my opponent to draw out on me? Perhaps, or maybe I was behind after the flop anyway, I honestly don't know. I do know that I was behind on that river 90% of the time or more, and I could get away with half my chips and blinds still at 10/20, which gave me time to recover.

If I had bet much larger, it would have ensured that I was sent packing on that first hand. This isn't a cash game, once I'm out, I'm out, no rebuys in this tourney.

[TomHimself]

so u wont commit ur chips with a set in a $10 tourney on the 1st hand on the flop?
so he CR's you allin on flop and you fold?

[lotus776]

I agree, I want to limit the field significantly. If he caught his hand it just wasn't your tounrey

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Tom, I have no problem getting more money in when I have the best hand, or on the turn, a hand that has a great draw. If I went all in on that turn and lost to a naked Ace of diamonds, so be it, but I got my chips in as the favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting all your chips in as a favorite doesn't mean squat. If your opponent still has a 25-35% chance to win, and they like their hand and put their money in, you lose your positional advantage and you leave the results up to the variance of the cards.

At least in my spot, I was able to hold onto half my chips. He likely had the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], but probably not another diamond. I figure his most likely holding was A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and that he wasn't going to fold the turn with the nut flush draw and the straight draw, even if he was getting the wrong odds to make a call if I pushed.

Plus, if he's on a lesser hand, I don't want to push him out, I want to get more chips out of him. And with position, the scare cards that hit against me, might also be scare cards for him (let's say he's on some donk holding like K/10 and hit two pair). If he is on two pair, that river is going to likely result in him checking, since most players assume you have an ace when you raise, and he knows he'll get called if he pushes the river.

Just like when I played a Stars turbo the other day. Very first hand I'm in the BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Bunch of limpers for 20 chips, I make it 200 to go. I figure my hand is going to be ahead of the majority of holdings out there, if someone wants to play, I'm ready to play (hoping to get action from a weaker ace).

Well, the donk who's UTG limped with Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and after my raise he immediately pushes all-in for 1500 chips?????

So, folded to me, I make the obvious call and he spikes a 5 and sends me packing. My opponent made a mistake, but I was only a 65% favorite to win, and I gave up my edge against this player, which is post-flop play.

I wasn't ready in the Q/Q hand to give up my positional advantage, or get all my money in as a 3:1 favorite and not allow myself an out, position was important in that situation. His turn check-raise showed me he seemed plenty willing to put ALL of his chips in. My play allowed me to see the horribly unlucky river card and get out, instead of having put all my chips in on the turn.

If my opponent had position on me, I would have been sigificantly more agressive with my holding. You must become a move-in specialist against players who are better than you and can outplay you and push you out of hands. Being a move-in specialist against calling stations gives up your edge over them.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
so u wont commit ur chips with a set in a $10 tourney on the 1st hand on the flop?
so he CR's you allin on flop and you fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop, I most certainly would have gone to the felt with that hand if he check-raised all-in, because I figure to be way ahead enough of the times to make that call.

My point is that I didn't want to push out a lesser holding, when I could likely extract more chips from him. And at the same time, I didn't want to commit all of my chips (if I didn't have to) on a board that might provide my opponent with enough outs to bust me out of the tourney.

[TomHimself]

[ QUOTE ]
Getting all your chips in as a favorite doesn't mean squat.

[/ QUOTE ] I thought it meant you win more.


this isnt a deep stacked tourney, you want to get ur money in against pair+flush draw etc.
i think the turn play is different but if ur gonna say u dont want to put more money in on the flop then u need to look at ur game and fix some leaks


with the way the hand played out i think i also fold the river but if a blank hits do u fold?

[TomHimself]

[ QUOTE ]
Being a move-in specialist against calling stations gives up your edge over them.


[/ QUOTE ] not when u have a solid hand