Do I need the free card here?

PSW · #1 10-25-2005, 01:03 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

MP1 seems like a reasonable TAG PF and more on the pasive side post flop. Not a lot of hands with him.

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, MP3 folds, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks?

I thought so... as I lost part of my reason for playing the hand on the flop (the BDFD). Also, his nature suggests that he might not bet a mid strength Ax hand on the turn.

Opinions?

THanks,

psw

TheMainEvent · #2 10-25-2005, 01:09 PM

Bet the turn, check the river. The free card is more likely to help him than you.

#3 10-25-2005, 01:13 PM

I would avoid giving him a free card on the turn and rather check behind on the river. If you check behind, he is most likely going to bet the river in which case you have to call so it costs the same.
Rather give him the chance now to fold a queen which might make 2 pair or trips on the river.

aargh57 · #4 10-25-2005, 01:14 PM

I'm thinking that you should bet again here. While he probably does have you outkicked, he just might have the Q here (maybe something like QJs). I give him one chance to fold. You're probably going to pay off the river here anyway so I would bet here and go for the free showdown UI.

TheHammer24 · #5 10-25-2005, 01:14 PM

How does everyone feel about the flop raise? This board isn't very scary and your hand isn't that vulnerable. Howver, the pot is 4-way

aargh57 · #6 10-25-2005, 01:18 PM

That's true. In a bigger pot it would be more valuable to increase your winning chances. This small perhaps calling would be closer.

TheMainEvent · #7 10-25-2005, 01:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That's true. In a bigger pot it would be more valuable to increase your winning chances. This small perhaps calling would be closer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not seeing the argument for calling instead of raising

Paxosmotic · #8 10-25-2005, 01:42 PM

I don't see why we'd need a free card, it's not like we're drawing to anything in particular. I bet again. I ain't scurr.

aargh57 · #9 10-25-2005, 01:43 PM

This post made me rethink always raising with TPNK in these type of spots. If you're ahead here and you raise the villain's going to fold the worse hand on the flop. Also, the other people in the pot are now going to fold their hopeless hands instead of sticking around for another bet when they're drawing thin. If you're behind you will sometimes lose an extra 1/2 small bet but not always (sometimes you'll get reraised). In a big pot, I'm more concerned with getting the other players out and increasing my winning chances. While this hand isn't quite like the one that I linked where villain may have had a weak K you're probably right. Here a raise probably is correct. It's just that now I don't always default to raising with TPNK after the bettor.

W. Deranged · #10 10-25-2005, 02:04 PM

I think a raise on the flop is good here. It is important to realize that it is not always necessary to raise weak top pairs on the flop. Here, though, there are a couple of reasons to do so:

1. MP1 didn't enter for a raise. That means it's less likely he has a big A. He may be betting a Q or something even worse. We have a pretty good reason to think we have the best hand now and should raise for value.

2. The board does have gutshot possibilities and other stuff. We'd like to encourage players with hands like 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to fold. While many of the hands that our opponents with gutshots (say JT) and so forth will not really have the immediate odds to call one bet, they do have implied odds, and we'd like to reduce the reverse implied odds which we are laying to the field.

3. We have no obvious reason to wait for the turn to raise. We don't have such a big hand that we want to try to extract extra value, and the board is not scary enough (no flush draw or one card straight draw, no vulnerability to overcards) that waiting for a safe card makes sense.

So I think it's probably good to just go ahead and play this pretty straightforwardly and raise.

Turn we really, really, really need to bet. We don't have that many outs against hands that are beating us (only 3 against a better A, none against a straight or a set, 5 against a hand like KQ). The board has gotten pretty scary now; with one card straight draws out there that we don't have, a free card is MUCH more likely to help your opponent than it is to help you.

So bet the turn and fold to a raise.