Raise KQ pf then fold to a 3-bet? Examples and discussion wanted

[droolie]

I like raising a wide range of hands pf and often have the uncomfortable experience of getting my hand caught in the cookie jar when I do this with the lower range of my holdings. I usually meekly call and hope to get lucky on the flop. This seems like a losing proposition. I usually fold the flop and gain nothing in metagaming aspects. Even when I hit the flop I usually wind up in a no win situation. Ie. with KQo on a K high flop I lose to AK, KK or AA. Or KQ on a Q high flop I lose to AA, KK, QQ, AQ. In other words I need for the reraiser to be holding JJ or below or AK or AQ and be able to move him off a better hand or a miracle str8ish flop in most cases for this call to be worthwhile.

Lately I've been considering folding some of these pf when reraised and OOP. (This is for games that are tight and aggressive pf like the ones sported at the skins lately.)

Is this ever correct? Is this fold standard and I've been spewing forever? How often in your experience are these 3-bets isolation 3-bets with lower pocket pairs? Is it all just read depedent? What say you?

Example 1: I raise UTG with KQo, MP (5%pfr) re-raises, folded to me?....

Example 2: I raise from MP+3 with ATo, Button (10%pfr) 3-bets, folded to me?....

Example 3: I raise from CO with QJo, Button (15%pfr) 3-bets, folded to me???....

Example 4: I raise KQo UTG, MP (12%pfr) rerasies from the CO, folded to me.

In any of these examples how much do the blinds coming along sway your decision one way or another? Do you care how tight they are? What odds do you need to chase a miracle flop?

[lautzutao]

I think in all honesty you're behind HU in every one of these situations. I'd need someone to come along, or have position. Since you have neither I don't see folding as a problem.

EDIT: actually I might call with example 3. QJo is a lot less likely to be dominated IMO.

[deception5]

I don't think it's every correct to fold for 1 more bet preflop after you raised.

1.) You're getting an immediate 5:1 or better (up to 6.5:1 if neither of you is a blind).
2.) You send a message to the table that you are raising with junk.
3.) You send a message to the table that you can be pushed off of your hands preflop. If you did this and I was on your left you could expect to get 3-bet very often.
4.) The implied odds when you hit a KQ flop are huge. JT flops are also nice.

You'll also have the best hand reasonably often on a Kxx or Qxx flop. You may even be the dominator when someone thinks you are stealing and they 3-bet you in late position.

Also the more tight/aggressive the game the more likely these are to be isolation bets. Especially if you've been raise/folding preflop.

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's every correct to fold for 1 more bet preflop after you raised.

1.) You're getting an immediate 5:1 or better (up to 6.5:1 if neither of you is a blind).
2.) You send a message to the table that you are raising with junk.
3.) You send a message to the table that you can be pushed off of your hands preflop. If you did this and I was on your left you could expect to get 3-bet very often.
4.) The implied odds when you hit a KQ flop are huge. JT flops are also nice.

You'll also have the best hand reasonably often on a Kxx or Qxx flop. You may even be the dominator when someone thinks you are stealing and they 3-bet you in late position.

Also the more tight/aggressive the game the more likely these are to be isolation bets. Especially if you've been raise/folding preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

So never fold pf fpr one bet? Hmm? I never do but lately I'm thinking this is moranic.

I see your point about metagaming butI'd only be doing it once in a while and cap quite often with my premium holdings against suspected isolators. I will always call if my hand has an A in it. I also think the 3-bettors pfr% has to be factored in. I would not expect a pfr%<7 to be doing much isolation. I isolate quite liberally against players with large pfr% with small pocket pairs and hate it when they cap.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
I also think the 3-bettors pfr% has to be factored in. I would not expect a pfr%<7 to be doing much isolation. I isolate quite liberally against players with large pfr% with small pocket pairs and hate it when they cap.

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely - the only one I even consider folding is #1. We have good enough immediate odds on all the rest to call and see a flop.

[lautzutao]

The question is how much money is being spent protecting our image in these particular instances?

[deception5]

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The question is how much money is being spent protecting our image in these particular instances?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not just a matter of protecting our image, we have a realistic chance of improving to the best hand and we're getting a large overlay to boot (especially if the blinds call).

As far as image goes, sure many opponents are unobservant, but even bad opponents will notice a play like this.

[lautzutao]

but realisically, getting 5.5:1 and considering the rake, is this such a good call against players with these kinds of PFR stats?

We probably do have the odds to call I guess, but in a lot of instances we're dominated with these hands. We aren't going to win much if we're ahead but we're gonna get killed if we're behind no?

[RatFink]

I think this is part of the territory. If you are raising KQo UTG then you gotta deal with the fact that you're gonna get 3-bet now and again. I don't see any merit in folding PF unless I want to be 3-bet mercilessly by everyone.

If this situation is happening a LOT at a table, then you might want to reconsider your early position opening standards for that session until you locate a new table to play at.

But in general the frequency in which this is occuring should be pretty minimal and calling the PF 3-bet and evaluating the flop isn't going to constitute a major leak to have an effect that would diminish the value you are getting out of raising these types of hands.

On #3 when you raise from the CO, you should expect a good button to be 3-betting you lighter than you might expect. wow horrible sentence structure. i hope you get my gist

[lautzutao]

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If this situation is happening a LOT at a table, then you might want to reconsider your early position opening standards...

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NH