Missing value bets?

[Billy LTL]

I've noticed a recent tendency of mine to check on the river with top pair, and even better.

A recent example: Six-handed, 15-30 online. Fairly tight, semi-aggressive game.

UTG limps, I raise with AcJd, button calls, sb reraises, utg folds, I call, button calls.

Flop is Jh5h3h. sb bets, I raise, button calls, sb reraises, I cap, button calls, sb calls.

Turn is 7c or something. sb bets, I raise, button hesitates then calls, sb calls.

River is Ad. sb checks, I CHECK, button checks and my two pair beats the sb's pocket KK.

I should've bet out on the river, right?

[Jimbo]

Either that or folded A/J off in EP in the first place! [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[glen]

It's six handed, so there is no EP, really. . .

[Billy LTL]

Either that or folded A/J off in EP in the first place!

Really Jimbo? You'd consider a preflop fold after utg limped in this shortish game?

Maybe I'm lacking poker skills on more streets than just the river.

Billy

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Billy- My coach lists "not betting the river when leading" and "not betting the river when making your hand" as 2 of the 10 most common Hold'em errors. Despite his incessant nagging, I too sometimes miss a river bet. I find that I most often miss when I fear a check/raise from an opponent who has been showing strength throughout the hand. I do sooooo hate being check/raised on the river [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] . For awhile, I was "overcompensating" by "almost always" betting the river and I found that to be problematic as well. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] Now, I am betting the river with "optimal" frequency (well, almost). [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] LGPG, Babe [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

[ChuckRazor]

I think this is a case where you missed a bet. I also think the "value bet" is the junk bond of the poker world. I really only use the value bet against very weak players. The ones that will "keep you honest" with second pair, no kicker. The value bet leads you down a lot of bad roads; Bluff street, Slowplay avenue and sometimes Calling Station lane. I check on the river a often with the best hand. I save a few bets. Why bet a hand that if you are called, you lose. Missing a bet on the river is only a major sin if your opponent would have folded a winning hand. My advice is to not fall in love with a phrase, play solid poker instead.

[Billy LTL]

Thanks Babe. Glad to know others here suffer from the dreaded RVbD "River Valuebet Doubt" syndrome. Your coach sounds like a wise man. What would either he or you have done with the hand I described above?

By the way, I wrote a poem about a recent purchase of mine.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I bought some new Italian shoes
I even wear them when online.

They make me look good, win or lose
And help me play good all the time.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Fabiano Ricci is the stone cold nuts.

Billy

[Billy LTL]

I think this is a case where you missed a bet.

Agreed.

I also think the "value bet" is the junk bond of the poker world

Nice turn of phrase and maybe we have a semantics problem here. I consider a value bet to be a bet which will show me a profit more often than not. Perhaps that definition doesn't meet the criteria of the dilemma I faced on this river, if not apologies.

I check on the river often with the best hand.

Of course there are many circumstances where it is correct to do so. I believe this wasn't one of them. What I'm really wondering was just how far off I was in this case.

I save a few bets. Why bet a hand that if you are called, you lose

I would have been called by at least one player, possibly two here. I would have called a checkraise if it had come to that. Without trying to be too results-orientated the potential extra bet(s) to be earned were significant. I've been missing far too many of them recently which hurts the bottom line.

Thanks for your input, Billy

[ChuckRazor]

My interpretation of the term "value bet" is betting by thinking you have a 50% or better chance of having the best hand. My experience leads me to believe you need more than 50/50 shot at being the best hand to lead at a pot(head up) on the river. Frankly, my opponents are just too good to use this play too often. Try something new...induce a bluff, whatever. Too much value betting is a LOSER against good opponents. That being said, spiking your ace on the river would cause me to lead at the pot. Unless Doc was my opponent, then I would fold twice.

[Vehn]

Frankly, my opponents are just too good to use this play too often.

and..you play at canterbury?

Last week a player limped in from MP, the SB called, and I checked in the big blind with Q9. Flop was J 9 x, I bet and the limper called. Turn was a blank, I bet and he called. The river was a blank, I bet, he called, and flashed T9o.